Buddhism

[got tonkaed]

a) it would probably depend on perception sure. I would assume that in some capacity if a person is willingly doing things that cause others to suffer but not believing it impacts their path to enlightenment they are either engaging in some form of self deception, at least under the framework we are talking about here.

If I cheat you out of something that belongs to you, I can probably say to myself, well there is a sucker born every minute and that I did not cause you any suffering. I would assume that engaging in such mental gymnastics probably doesn't get you closer to enlightenment. I could be wrong here, but it just makes sense that you can't be lying to yourself all the time and reach enlightenment.

B) I was under the impression that it is believed as a tenant that we all should be seeking enlightenment as it is the only way out of a cycle of suffering. Obviously not as proselytizing as some other western religions, but I think that is still the Buddhist answer in some respect.

Despite that though, if you hoped to attain enlightenment and saw that punishment or being killed could clearly stand in the way of that, you would probably make an effort to prevent those negative outcomes from occurring if possible.

[Dukasaur]

One of the things I was reading recently was about the relationship between Buddhism and morality. Buddhism avoids making any kind of moral rules or codes, and when it talks about 'good' and 'evil' it seems to simply be talking about actions and behaviors which are or aren't conducive to enlightenment.

It also seems to say that causing suffering (in either yourself or others) is evil though. One of the five precepts says that everyone fears death and punishment, and therefore one shouldn't inflict these on other living things. What I wondered is:

a) why it matters what you do to another living being, given that that doesn't appear to have any relation to enlightenment; and

b) I thought attachment (including attachment to life) is one of the things that Buddhists are supposed to relinquish, so surely an enlightened person wouldn't care about being punished or killed anyway.

Because Buddhism is a non-theistic religion, there is no "God" on which we can blame our suffering. All the suffering is what we (the capital "WE", meaning all conscious beings, and avoiding any arguments about which beings are conscious) have created.

Escaping from the cycle of the world through enlightenment is only the final exit strategy; it does not absolve us of the responsibility to make the world a better place while we are in it. By analogy, when I go to a restaurant for dinner I know I will be leaving before long. That doesn't make it okay to piss on the floor and make other people's experience unpleasant.

What do you mean by 'the cycle of the world'? I was under the impression that Buddhists don't believe in human souls moving from life form to life form.

Why do we have a responsibility to make the world a better place for other people? Is that a Buddhist thing or is that what you're saying?

The wording is mine, but it's an honest paraphrase of what Buddhists teach:
http://cattrang.org/study/buddhism101.htm

2. What is the difference between Buddhism and other religions?


The key point in which Buddhism differs from other religions is that Buddhism does not believe in the existence of a Personal God who creates, controls, and governs the life of all sentient beings, including human beings. According to the Buddhist view, suffering or happiness is created not by God, but by each individual person together with the karmic force, which is also the product of each person.

18. What is the karmic law of causes and effects?



To be exact, karma and the law of causes and effects are the two most important issues strictly connected to the life of human beings. They are also considered to be the reason for the existence of human beings in the cycle of samsāra. Literally, cause is the original force or reason that produces a direct effect and effect is a mature consequence created by its causes. You can understand the relationship of causes and effects through the correlations of an action, such as when you eat, your stomach is full, or when stay up late, you feel sleepy. Causes and effects are the compensational law, working objectively and correspondingly, but the actual impact is always influenced by psychological elements. Contrastingly, karma refers to a good or bad action that is created and governed by the mind. A proper name for such actions is wholesome karma or unwholesome karma. Accordingly, karma and causes and effects always connect to each other; in other words, karma is the operation of causes and effects in which the mind always serves as the foundation for any creation and destruction. Therefore, the current of mental energy is the life of karma. Truly, a good mind produces good karma and a bad mind gives birth to bad karma. Hence, in order to have a life of peace and happiness, you should cultivate the wholesome seeds through your three personal karmas and develop the pure and bright energy of the mind. Buddhism teaches that a practitioner must always nurture and cultivate the four virtues of the sublime mind: loving kindness, compassion, joyfulness, and equanimity.

78. What is the Buddhist view on the issue of “good and evil”?



The Buddhist view on the wholesome (good) and unwholesome (not good) is clearly defined in the teaching of karma, in which three karmas belonging to the physical, verbal, and mental aspects are divided into two categories: ten wholesome (kusala) karmas and ten unwholesome (akusala) karmas (see the following table).

a) Physical karmas:

Killing, stealing, and conducting sexual immorality.

b) Verbal karmas:

False speech, a double tongue, hateful speech, and slanderous speech.

c) Mental karmas:

Craving, hatred, and ignorance or false view.


Committing the ten karmas above is considered not good (or evil) while not committing these ten karmas and trying to save the life of others—providing help, speaking the truth in harmonious and affectionate ways, and cultivating all other virtuous deeds—are called wholesome (good) karmas. However, two important aspects regarding the Buddhist concept of wholesomeness should be noted: the human ground of ethics and the spiritual ground of enlightenment and liberation. Ethically, wholesomeness involves practicing the Dharma and the ten wholesome karmas; spiritually, in the noble path of enlightenment and liberation, wholesomeness is itself nirvāna and the Dharmas that lead to nirvāna, including all pure and non-dualistic Dharmas. Thus, the Buddhist concept of wholesomeness has two levels; one carries the meaning of human ethics while the other refers to the spiritual state of supra-mundane, nirvāna.

In the first issue—rejecting the view of the existence of a powerful God who creates and controls the life of all sentient and non-sentient beings—Buddhism teaches that man and his world are created and formed by innumerable conditions in which man takes the decisive role in creating a life of suffering or happiness through his own karmic operation of the physical, verbal, and mental.

That's just from one specific Buddhist sect, and I know there are many others, but these areas are basic Deer Park ideas that are common to most Buddhist schools.

As for death and rebirth, that is also pretty common to all forms of Buddhism:
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma5/viewdeath.html

[mrswdk]

Re reincarnation: I don't know. The source I found said that reincarnation is a common misconception and that Buddhism doesn't actually teach that. Those 6 realms all exist side by side, and your actions or thoughts affect which of those realms/states you are currently inhabiting or living in at any one point.

Re ways of behaving: that look concerned with the way in which your actions affect your inner self. Karma is a pragmatic concern, but that doesn't mean that one should avoid causing harm to another person on account of doing so being innately 'bad'. It's more than a series of harmful actions will eventually come back to bite you (which still makes sense, it's just that there's no element of moral code or commandment in that).

[mrswdk]

So apparently when Buddhism first came to hold that all beings were capable of achieving enlightenment, the monks who first came up with that idea said that people should try to help everyone achieve enlightenment, not just achieve it for themselves, which would explain why they would say you ought not to behave in ways which would make it more difficult for others to become enlightened. The page I found doesn't appear to say why anyone 'should' help all others achieve enlightenment though, other than because that's why bodhisattva did.

[muy_thaiguy]

I admit, my knowledge is limited. Though a friend in my martial arts class a few years ago (he was from China) gave me a little Buddha statue for Christmas. Definitely different, I'll say that.

[nietzsche]

Re reincarnation: I don't know. The source I found said that reincarnation is a common misconception and that Buddhism doesn't actually teach that. Those 6 realms all exist side by side, and your actions or thoughts affect which of those realms/states you are currently inhabiting or living in at any one point.

This is because everything is happening now. Time is an illusion.

--

There's no point to trying to explain Buddhism to someone who is not willing to experiment with meditation. It's more like, whoever is inclined to it, will find resources and will probably get into it. And those who are not will find references to Buddhism, mock it and move on with their set of beliefs intact. (I'm not a Buddhist, but I do have some ideas of spirituality).

What's your interest in the matter?

[ZornSlayer]

Buddism in a nutshell:

If you are suffering or upset about something, it is because you care.

To stop suffering, simply stop caring.

When you stop caring you can do kind and generous things because you won't care if they fail in the end because you just do them for the heck of it.

If you stop caring about everything, you will enter Nervanna the spirit of nothingness, and this will cure you form possibly re-incarnating as an insect.

[t4mcr53s2]

forgot the second name but Aung Oakkar( if my memory serves,) seemed to be quite knowledgable.. you might send Aung a pm...
Macbone wound remember who it was ; the 3 of us had a nice global chat

ps is it Mrs wdk or Mr swdk?

[mrswdk]

There's no point to trying to explain Buddhism to someone who is not willing to experiment with meditation. It's more like, whoever is inclined to it, will find resources and will probably get into it. And those who are not will find references to Buddhism, mock it and move on with their set of beliefs intact. (I'm not a Buddhist, but I do have some ideas of spirituality).

What's your interest in the matter?

I'm interested in what Buddhism has to say about the way in which people live their life, and also how much of what it says is based in belief in/assumption of supernatural beings, forces or powers.

The impression I get is that some/most/all Buddhists believe that those who achieve Enlightenment achieve eternal life, and I was also wondering if that understanding is correct.

[mrswdk]

forgot the second name but Aung Oakkar( if my memory serves,) seemed to be quite knowledgable.. you might send Aung a pm...
Macbone wound remember who it was ; the 3 of us had a nice global chat

ps is it Mrs wdk or Mr swdk?

Mmkay, thank you bao bei.

It's Mrs WDK ^_^

[nietzsche]

There's no point to trying to explain Buddhism to someone who is not willing to experiment with meditation. It's more like, whoever is inclined to it, will find resources and will probably get into it. And those who are not will find references to Buddhism, mock it and move on with their set of beliefs intact. (I'm not a Buddhist, but I do have some ideas of spirituality).

What's your interest in the matter?

I'm interested in what Buddhism has to say about the way in which people live their life, and also how much of what it says is based in belief in/assumption of supernatural beings, forces or powers.

The impression I get is that some/most/all Buddhists believe that those who achieve Enlightenment achieve eternal life, and I was also wondering if that understanding is correct.

There really is not right and wrong, good or evil, but if you do evilish things is because you're not whole.

Nothing intrinsically bad with being rich, except if you're trying to get rid of wanting stuff, makes no sense you aim for richness. If you get deeper into this stuff, you will find the claims that everything happens thru you, the experience is real, but the material world is not. Like as if you were dreaming. So basically you have all the power and you create the "forces".

Consciousness is eternal, wherther you achieve enlighment or not, the purpose of achieving enlightment is to stop suffering. It's supposed to be the main goal, that eventually, in X reincarnation you achieve enlighment, but this is thinking time is linear again.

I'm not sure I answered completely in accordance with Buddhism, but I did in accordance to some spiritual ideas. They're all pretty similar. It seems to me they all come from the same enlightened state, filtered through personal beliefs that remain.


I'm nit aure about buddhism but other spiritual teachings say there's no god/ god is everything/ you're part of everything/ you're god.

[nietzsche]

the last parqgraph was supposed to be the third, stupid tiny iphone.

[mrswdk]

Cool, thanks.

What do you mean 'consciousness is eternal'? Your consciousness lives on even after your physical body dies?

[nietzsche]

Cool, thanks.

What do you mean 'consciousness is eternal'? Your consciousness lives on even after your physical body dies?

yes, that's what it's said.

[mrswdk]

My understanding is that Buddhists don't believe that. They believe that the energies which your consciousness was a part of continue to exist, but that there is no such thing as a 'self' which is repeatedly reincarnated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebirth_%28Buddhism%29

[muy_thaiguy]

Somewhat related:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/27/asia/mumm ... nk-statue/

[Dukasaur]

My understanding is that Buddhists don't believe that. They believe that the energies which your consciousness was a part of continue to exist, but that there is no such thing as a 'self' which is repeatedly reincarnated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebirth_%28Buddhism%29

You're distorting what you're reading to match your preconceived view.

From the article you cite:

The lack of a fixed self does not mean lack of continuity. In the same way that a flame is transferred from one candle to another, there is a conditioned relationship between one life and the next: they are neither identical nor completely distinct.

[nietzsche]

My understanding is that Buddhists don't believe that. They believe that the energies which your consciousness was a part of continue to exist, but that there is no such thing as a 'self' which is repeatedly reincarnated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebirth_%28Buddhism%29

well i assume it means the same. Remember that your personality is your ego, your ego is a psychologicall construct, but it's not the same as consciousness. Consciousness is indeed like energy, awareness. You will need to have te reference of a deep meditative state.

Since you're living your other lives at the same time, you have other portions of your consciousness focused in those lives.

As I said, these teachings come from enlightened selves and adapt them through their remaining beliefs, so all share some stuff and differ in other things. Much like when you're dreaming weird stuff and start to become conscious and then start to adapt those feelings that doesn't necesarily relate to you waking life into things that resemble experiences of your waking life.

Have you heard about people that in deep hypnosis remember to great detail other lives?

[mrswdk]

My understanding is that Buddhists don't believe that. They believe that the energies which your consciousness was a part of continue to exist, but that there is no such thing as a 'self' which is repeatedly reincarnated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebirth_%28Buddhism%29

You're distorting what you're reading to match your preconceived view.

From the article you cite:

The lack of a fixed self does not mean lack of continuity. In the same way that a flame is transferred from one candle to another, there is a conditioned relationship between one life and the next: they are neither identical nor completely distinct.

Your quote supports what I said. There is no fixed self which passes on from body to body.

[mrswdk]

Have you heard about people that in deep hypnosis remember to great detail other lives?

No, and I would be highly skeptical of any such claims.

[Dukasaur]

My understanding is that Buddhists don't believe that. They believe that the energies which your consciousness was a part of continue to exist, but that there is no such thing as a 'self' which is repeatedly reincarnated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebirth_%28Buddhism%29

You're distorting what you're reading to match your preconceived view.

From the article you cite:

The lack of a fixed self does not mean lack of continuity. In the same way that a flame is transferred from one candle to another, there is a conditioned relationship between one life and the next: they are neither identical nor completely distinct.

Your quote supports what I said. There is no fixed self which passes on from body to body.

What part of "the lack of a fixed self does not mean a lack of continuity" do you have trouble understanding?

[nietzsche]

Have you heard about people that in deep hypnosis remember to great detail other lives?

No, and I would be highly skeptical of any such claims.

of course.

i assume then that you're highly skeptical about everything else related to Buddhism and spirituality.

this is what i meant when i say those who relate to it get more into it and those who are not simply pass and continue with their materialistic beliefs systems.

[mrswdk]

My understanding is that Buddhists don't believe that. They believe that the energies which your consciousness was a part of continue to exist, but that there is no such thing as a 'self' which is repeatedly reincarnated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebirth_%28Buddhism%29

You're distorting what you're reading to match your preconceived view.

From the article you cite:

The lack of a fixed self does not mean lack of continuity. In the same way that a flame is transferred from one candle to another, there is a conditioned relationship between one life and the next: they are neither identical nor completely distinct.

Your quote supports what I said. There is no fixed self which passes on from body to body.

What part of "the lack of a fixed self does not mean a lack of continuity" do you have trouble understanding?

Which part of that contradicts my post where I said 'the energies which your consciousness was a part of continue to exist, but... there is no such thing as a 'self' which is repeatedly reincarnated'?

[mrswdk]

Have you heard about people that in deep hypnosis remember to great detail other lives?

No, and I would be highly skeptical of any such claims.

of course.

i assume then that you're highly skeptical about everything else related to Buddhism and spirituality.

this is what i meant when i say those who relate to it get more into it and those who are not simply pass and continue with their materialistic beliefs systems.

Why, why was I cursed with this petty, puny mind? Teach me, Dalai nietzsche, and unchain this brain of mine!

[nietzsche]

Have you heard about people that in deep hypnosis remember to great detail other lives?

No, and I would be highly skeptical of any such claims.

of course.

i assume then that you're highly skeptical about everything else related to Buddhism and spirituality.

this is what i meant when i say those who relate to it get more into it and those who are not simply pass and continue with their materialistic beliefs systems.

Why, why was I cursed with this petty, puny mind? Teach me, Dalai nietzsche, and unchain this brain of mine!

that's the whole point! you can't be taught anything. either you're this crazy or you're not. i hqve this clear picture in my head, i was like 9 years old i and i was walking to my room deeply pondering that there was something weird about human behaviour, that there was more.

i dont expect you to be crazy like me mrs wdk, most people are well adapted to a common life. the trick is never to go beyond your set of working beliefs. non plus ultra.