The small country next to Amsterdam

[Lord Arioch]

DO u expect me to remember everything? What would he learn if we told him everything... but yeah true and right! China is a fascinating country. as is the rest of asia... but we learn almost nothing here about it ... gunpowder, paper money, the wall, oh and mao thats about it way to summirize school!

[waauw]

I still have a hard time believing asian history back then had the greater impact. WWI revolutionized technologies and warfare, led to the great depression and eventually the end of 400 years of Colonialism.

[mrswdk]

WW2 was the one which really put the old empires on the decline. WW1 was way too contained.

[Lord Arioch]

Yup!
And the japanese were like way ahead of Europe at that time ... but has i said log term and short term impacts ... idont say that WW1 were a nice place and nothing came out of it but at that moment loads of long term impact stuff happened all over the world ...

[waauw]

WW2 was the one which really put the old empires on the decline. WW1 was way too contained.

Actually it's after the financial weakening of WWI that the US started promoting equal rights of nations. After WWII, europe was completely devastated due to the combined effect of both world wars and the US was able push it up a gear undermining european colonialism and putting it to an end.
Both World wars were responsible for the end of colonialism, especially considering WWI eventually led to WWII. If there had been no WWI, european powers would have easily been able to stop the military rise of Japan in asia.

[waauw]

And the japanese were like way ahead of Europe at that time

How's that? Technologically, economically, financially and purely based on army-numbers Japan got eclipsed. The british empire had to retreat navy from all over the world back to europe in order to fight off the germans. If it weren't for WWI, said navy would've still remained abroad and Pax Brittanica would kept prospering.

[mrswdk]

Whatever the US did or didn't do, it took WW2 to actually push colonies into leaving empires.

European powers weren't interested in stopping Japan's rise. The British were actually allied with them until the 1920s.

[waauw]

Whatever the US did or didn't do, it took WW2 to actually push colonies into leaving empires.

European powers weren't interested in stopping Japan's rise. The British were actually allied with them until the 1920s.

If you read up on european politics, you'll realize it was british policy to try and keep other empires in check, especially foreign navy's. Unfortunately for them, due to WWI and german agression, focus shifted. Without WWI, the british would've had a larger presence in the pacific.

And as I mentioned before. Without WWI there wouldn't have been a WWII either.

[waauw]

Just an FYI, I'm willing to believe asian history in that period might have been more important. However I'd like to know the argumentation for that.
I can't just blindly change opinion.

[mrswdk]

The British attempting to maintain dominance is not the same thing as Europe wanting to suppress Japan, though. European powers had regularly co-operated with and fought alongside Japan in carving up China. After WWI the Chinese city of Tianjin was taken from Germany after WWI and handed to Japan as a spoil of war.

Japan's really major aggression and expansion, starting in 1937, was actually triggered by American attempts to isolate it. The European empires diminishing their military presence in Asia allowed Japan to grow and fill the void, but other than occupying Manchuria it didn't make very aggressive use of its hegemony. It was only after American sanctions really started to bite that Japan was forced to either allow itself to start withering or start acquiring resources by force.

I wouldn't say that events in Asia were more important, but I also wouldn't say they were any less important. The Chinese revolution and resultant civil war alone had some pretty massive implications for the way in which the 20th century played out.

[Lord Arioch]

Yup
And if the britts would have gone up vs the japs they would have been spanked ... the japs had THE most advanced military of their time ...

its hard to argue in 2nd language and without speech:) i belive u are both right .. both happenings are important in their own way ...

[waauw]

The British attempting to maintain dominance is not the same thing as Europe wanting to suppress Japan, though. European powers had regularly co-operated with and fought alongside Japan in carving up China. After WWI the Chinese city of Tianjin was taken from Germany after WWI and handed to Japan as a spoil of war.

Japan's really major aggression and expansion, starting in 1937, was actually triggered by American attempts to isolate it. The European empires diminishing their military presence in Asia allowed Japan to grow and fill the void, but other than occupying Manchuria it didn't make very aggressive use of its hegemony. It was only after American sanctions really started to bite that Japan was forced to either allow itself to start withering or start acquiring resources by force.

I wouldn't say that events in Asia were more important, but I also wouldn't say they were any less important. The Chinese revolution and resultant civil war alone had some pretty massive implications for the way in which the 20th century played out.

Yeah I'm trying to instigate a reaction out of Lord Arioch
And yes, europe has never really been interested in Japan. They had no resources and the big cultural rage in europe was about China. Europeans went nuts for chinese art in the 18th and 19th century. Interest in China was even large enough to push the british into a trade deficit with China at the start of 18th century.

[mrswdk]

@Lord Arioch I believe that was part of their motivation for making an alliance with Japan. Partly because there was no point trying to go up against them as a rival, and partly because they wanted Japanese help in containing other imperial powers in the region.

In fact, Googling around a bit to find out why the British-Japanese alliance ended, it's all America. Nothing to do with any kind of bad feeling between Japan and the UK, just America sticking its oar in to try and undermine Japan.

Pretty much every war in Asia since the start of the 20th century seems to have 'Made in USA' stamped on the bottom of it. Fck the imperialists. Long live the might of the PRC.

[mrswdk]

And yes, europe has never really been interested in Japan. They had no resources and the big cultural rage in europe was about China. Europeans went nuts for chinese art in the 18th and 19th century. Interest in China was even large enough to push the british into a trade deficit with China at the start of 18th century.

Yup. The Brits wanted tea, china and silk, the Chinese didn't want anything in return (except opium, which the government had banned import of). China was bleeding the UK dry until the Opium Wars happened.

[waauw]

Yup
And if the britts would have gone up vs the japs they would have been spanked ... the japs had THE most advanced military of their time ...

Really? Because as far as I know, the germans and the british had the most advanced dreadnoughts and submarines in the world around that time. Japan didn't even have any chemical and biological weapons. And France had the most advanced airforce up until the 1930's.

[Lord Arioch]

Its part of the mind set when japan went industrialisation they did it with a vengence ...
for a pretty long time they expanded heavily in asia mainly cause EU countries had there own troubles .. but they had a serious army ... and a will to use it we lacked... at that time.

The thing is its all connected u cant break out pieces of history... we tend to forget or rewrite the damn thing but i think we have gotten more from asia that still exist today than from any other place.

Dont really know what reaction u want from me:) i think EU and US have underestimated the asian power for a long time, and now its their time to be richest and dictate stuff ... them and india ... EU and US are in serious decline cause as usual we assumed we would allways be at the top ... like all empires

I dont claim to be an expert ...

[mrswdk]

Dont really know what reaction u want from me:) i think EU and US have underestimated the asian power for a long time, and now its their time to be richest and dictate stuff ... them and india ... EU and US are in serious decline cause as usual we assumed we would allways be at the top ... like all empires

I dont claim to be an expert ...

Historically speaking, the wealth and might of the West over the past 1-2 centuries has been a complete anomaly, coming about due to the fact that Western nations were the first to develop. Until the industrial revolution, the sheer size of China and India meant that between them they always accounted for about half of the whole world's wealth:



China currently has a GDP per capita of something like 15% of America's, and its economy is already the same size. Without getting even close to the level of wealth the US has, China could still easily grow to 3 or 4 times the size of America, and India likewise (although India really needs to get its shit together before that'll happen).

One has to assume that India does actually manage to sort itself out, but within a century its totally conceivable that China and India together will completely dwarf today's developed world.

[notyou2]

Or starve to death as well as diseases.

[mrswdk]

Or starve to death as well as diseases.

Well after China's finished buying Canada we can always take all your burgers if we start to get hungry

[waauw]

Or starve to death as well as diseases.

Well after China's finished buying Canada we can always take all your burgers if we start to get hungry

Will never happen. Canada isn't Australia. For instance, a few years ago the Canadians forbade the chinese to buy their Potassium mines(extremely rare resource necessary for making synthetic fertilizer).

[mrswdk]

Give them a few more years.

[waauw]

Give them a few more years.

You know how greedy the US is. They won't let go of their bitch.

[mrswdk]

Maybe they could reach some sort of shared custody deal, like divorcing parents. China does the school runs, America sees it on weekends for Pizza Hut.

And then when China remarries to every other country in the South China Sea, Canada can use the corals for swimming practice.

[DoomYoshi]

Any gold or copper mine in this country has a decent chance of being owned by Chinese and operated by Chinese workers. I love traveling through small town Canada to feed off the xenophobic racism.

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

This thread makes me want to declare Great Britain to be the greatest country in the world, and to point out that our Empire has never diminished!

(But its not really true anymore)