Greece: 48 Hours to the End

[mrswdk]

So? These people should be happy that their lives are getting better, not whining that their levels of wealth and comfort are not growing at the exact same pace as richer people's.

I guess you didn't watch the video I posted... Watch it then we can talk.

cba. What's the gist of it?

If you look at differences as a percentage percentage, they are increasing. Richer become more rich and poorer become more poor.

Well then my original point still stands. They are getting richer - why does it matter that much if they are not getting richer as quickly as other groups of society?

The public money being given to Greece is not 'poor people's money'. You think tax money only comes from poor people? And in any case, the IMF/EU money was being invested to stop Greece from collapsing, defaulting and making a messy exit from the Eurozone (i.e. it was to save Greece along with all the other countries tied to Greece).

Yes they are poor peoples money. Poor peoples money didn't had any part of Greek debt, but now they have part of the process of "saving" Greece. They should be refunded by rich people. All of them.

Sigh. If you hate rich people that much then go 'occupy' your local stock exchange.

Why do you think that Greece will exit Euro zone? There is no such option. They will continue to use the Euro regardless what EU want to do.

lolwat

Yes, if Greece had never borrowed money in the first place then they would not have debts to pay off. But they did, and they do.

If Greece declare bankruptcy they wont be in such big debts... It will be the same as they didn't borrowed money, regardless if they did or not

That's not how bankruptcy works.

[GoranZ]

Yes, if Greece had never borrowed money in the first place then they would not have debts to pay off. But they did, and they do.

Hey! Its not Greece's problem now, now its the ECB, EU, IMF and Germany's problem now isn't it?

Hahahahaha!
Greece says, "So sorry, we don't have the money to pay so screw you guys, we ain't paying the debt back" and they default. What happens?

Sure, people won't want to loan Greece any money in the near future. In return Greece gets out of their debt. Does this mean people won't still come to vacation on the Greek isles? Will Greece stop making wine? Will Greece stop growing pistachios, cotton, tomatoes, figs and almonds? Will shipping stop going through Greece? I doubt it. These things have real value and the money Greece makes from said resources won't have to go to paying the back the IMF (unless the rest of Europe wants to come in and take them by force, i.e. war, Europeans killing other Europeans, will it come to that?)

All these things are real wealth as opposed to the fake and arbitrary value of the currency "lent" to Greece. Greece has everything she needs to begin true economic recovery if she could only get out from under the crippling debt upon her.

In case of Greece there is no nearly enough collateral

Yes, if Greece had never borrowed money in the first place then they would not have debts to pay off. But they did, and they do.

If Greece declare bankruptcy they wont be in such big debts... It will be the same as they didn't borrowed money, regardless if they did or not

That's not how bankruptcy works.

It worked in Argentina and many other countries, why would Greece be different?

The public money being given to Greece is not 'poor people's money'. You think tax money only comes from poor people? And in any case, the IMF/EU money was being invested to stop Greece from collapsing, defaulting and making a messy exit from the Eurozone (i.e. it was to save Greece along with all the other countries tied to Greece).

Yes they are poor peoples money. Poor peoples money didn't had any part of Greek debt, but now they have part of the process of "saving" Greece. They should be refunded by rich people. All of them.

Sigh. If you hate rich people that much then go 'occupy' your local stock exchange.

I dont hate rich people... I hate rich dumb people when they manage to save part of their wealth on the expense of the poor people, wealth they dont deserve.

[mrswdk]

Yes, if Greece had never borrowed money in the first place then they would not have debts to pay off. But they did, and they do.

Hey! Its not Greece's problem now, now its the ECB, EU, IMF and Germany's problem now isn't it?

Hahahahaha!
Greece says, "So sorry, we don't have the money to pay so screw you guys, we ain't paying the debt back" and they default. What happens?

Sure, people won't want to loan Greece any money in the near future. In return Greece gets out of their debt. Does this mean people won't still come to vacation on the Greek isles? Will Greece stop making wine? Will Greece stop growing pistachios, cotton, tomatoes, figs and almonds? Will shipping stop going through Greece? I doubt it. These things have real value and the money Greece makes from said resources won't have to go to paying the back the IMF (unless the rest of Europe wants to come in and take them by force, i.e. war, Europeans killing other Europeans, will it come to that?)

All these things are real wealth as opposed to the fake and arbitrary value of the currency "lent" to Greece. Greece has everything she needs to begin true economic recovery if she could only get out from under the crippling debt upon her.

You do know that one of the first things that happens when you default on a debt is that all your 'real wealth' gets seized as collateral, right?

In case of Greece there is no nearly enough collateral

In which case Greece would be stripped of everything it has. Either way, this fantasy that you and patches have of Greece emerging from bankruptcy with the wind in its sails is wildly misguided.

Yes, if Greece had never borrowed money in the first place then they would not have debts to pay off. But they did, and they do.

If Greece declare bankruptcy they wont be in such big debts... It will be the same as they didn't borrowed money, regardless if they did or not

That's not how bankruptcy works.

It worked in Argentina and many other countries, why would Greece be different?

lol. Argentina? Interesting choice of role model.

The public money being given to Greece is not 'poor people's money'. You think tax money only comes from poor people? And in any case, the IMF/EU money was being invested to stop Greece from collapsing, defaulting and making a messy exit from the Eurozone (i.e. it was to save Greece along with all the other countries tied to Greece).

Yes they are poor peoples money. Poor peoples money didn't had any part of Greek debt, but now they have part of the process of "saving" Greece. They should be refunded by rich people. All of them.

Sigh. If you hate rich people that much then go 'occupy' your local stock exchange.

I dont hate rich people... I hate rich dumb people when they manage to save part of their wealth on the expense of the poor people, wealth they dont deserve.

It baffles me how you can look at the Greek crisis and come to the conclusion that 'rich people' are to blame, and that 'rich people' have been bailed out by 'poor people' as the crisis has unfolded. How much blame do you think the Greek government bears, for its gross financial mismanagement of the Greek economy?

[patches70]

You do know that one of the first things that happens when you default on a debt is that all your 'real wealth' gets seized as collateral, right?

Yeah? Who's going to seize it? You think the Eurozone is going to send in troops to seize Greek property? Greek agricultural fields? Greek ports?
This isn't an individual where the police show up to kick the home borrower out of the bank''s house. What you are saying is that you think European troops (non Greek of course) will march into Greece and take what is owed?

Egypt seized the Suez canal from the British and when the British tried to take it back by force the US told them to GTFO. I am hopeful that it won't come to violence but if it does it still has the same effect, the breakup of the Eurozone. Not to mention is anyone going to stand for German troops marching into Greece in response to a debt? I don't think so.

Are the rest of the Europeans going to blockade Greece? To keep them from selling Greek products? Are the Europeans going to declare a ban on Greek tourism? Are European troops going to turn away Russian, Chinese, Japanese or any other tourists from visiting Greece? Are European troops going to march into Greek tourists spots and confiscate any funds they find?

For that matter, when the US defaulted in 1971 did anyone seize American assets?

Greece isn't near the powerhouse of the US, not even in the same league, but are people really willing to fight and kill and inflict even more misery to make sure that a central bank gets its money back? I would hope not. Are the Europeans really that petty? That stupid?

Maybe.

Greece will be a pariah for a while then it will get better. The wrong approach by the EU is going to show what the Eurozone really is, a totalitarian financial tyrant. Which is about all they are, its not like anyone is going to lay down their lives for the ECB. Its not like the ECB is really losing anything, they printed money out of thin air like every other central bank does. Currency is only valuable because a government holds a bayonet to people's backs. When the faith in the currency is gone no amount of prodding by bayonets is going to matter and only makes things worse.

f*ck the banks, they lent to someone they knew couldn't pay back the debt and they've used their power of the printing press to enact political goals. This is unacceptable. If you are a responsible lender, you don't lend money for political purposes. You lend based on cold hard facts, not fraud. If you are a lender and you keep lending money to people you know can't pay you back then you will go bankrupt, rightfully so IMO. Especially if you lend to someone without collateral or no way of reasonably being able to collect that collateral.

The supposed "collateral" of the Greeks that the ECB used to leverage the loans were inflated asset prices which were pure bogus amounts anyway. Its fraud, its always been fraud and there is no way to collect any collateral unless violence is prepared to be used. I'm betting that said violence won't be resorted to because for no other reason than its bad for business.

Greece has already been looted for every ounce of gold they once possessed. The Greeks have already been looted for all the Greek islands and Greek property that can legally be sold (Greek government property). There is nothing left except to steal the food from the Greek citizen's mouths.


I don't know about you, but for my part I say "No way, the Greeks are done. Leave them alone now and let them get back on their feet." I have faith that the rest of the world will feel the same way for the most part and that the central banks can just go ahead and stew and eat their losses like they should. Like they are ultimately going to have to. Then the ECB can do this all over again with Spain, Portugal, France, Ireland and Italy.

You say that Greece should get what they deserve, they will. The ECB and the IMF should get what they deserve as well as they are just as guilty as the Greeks. Fraud is fraud and the day will come when bankers are hung from light posts if they push too hard.

[patches70]

Either way, this fantasy that you and patches have of Greece emerging from bankruptcy with the wind in its sails is wildly misguided.

Its not a fantasy, its reality. Was England stripped of everything she had when the pound sterling was destroyed? Did the US suffer when she defaulted on Bretton Woods?

That's what bankruptcy does, it gets rid of the debts and the creditors get pennies on the dollar when its all said and done and once emerged from the process it most definitely is wind in the sails.

Is it painful? Certainly, the Greeks will feel a great deal of pain, a lot more pain than if they had just gone ahead and defaulted right from the get go instead of suffering through "bailouts" that served to only lengthen the pain. The pain is going to be felt by the ECB and the IMF as well, along with the rest of the Eurozone, as is right and proper. They deserve to suffer the pain as well and that pain is so much the worse because they too went with this farce of the bailouts.

There will be plenty of pain to go around. All deservedly so. Debt matters even if the central banks and the governments of the world try to pretend that it doesn't. Economic reality, its a bitch. I hope this serves as a wake up call to everyone else about the idiocy of central banks and government partnerships because if not then everyone is going to end up going through what Greece is going through. Then it'll get really ugly. Bankers and their government partners are going to find themselves on the wrong side and at the wrong end of a long rope.

The Iceland model is a decent model to look at. Instead of bailing out the bankers they tossed the bankers in prison and let their banks fail and Iceland emerged from the crash better off than the rest of Europe as is evidenced today.

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

Its not a fantasy, its reality. Was England stripped of everything she had when the pound sterling was destroyed?

eh? We still use pound sterling...

[mrswdk]

You do know that one of the first things that happens when you default on a debt is that all your 'real wealth' gets seized as collateral, right?

Yeah? Who's going to seize it? You think the Eurozone is going to send in troops to seize Greek property? Greek agricultural fields? Greek ports?

lol. And what happens every time a Greek ship, truck, plane or anything else leaves the country on a trade run? Oops, it (and everything on board) has just been seized. Repeat ad nauseum.

f*ck the banks, they lent to someone they knew couldn't pay back the debt and they've used their power of the printing press to enact political goals. This is unacceptable. If you are a responsible lender, you don't lend money for political purposes. You lend based on cold hard facts, not fraud. If you are a lender and you keep lending money to people you know can't pay you back then you will go bankrupt, rightfully so IMO. Especially if you lend to someone without collateral or no way of reasonably being able to collect that collateral.

Oh, but those investors were given assurances by not only the Greek government but by the entire Eurozone that Greece was a reputable country. If Greece and its Eurozone friends didn't want to end up footing the bill for dodgy debts, they should have been honest with Greece's creditors at the outset. Their lies and deceit have come back to bite them. That's karma. Doesn't mean they get to shirk their debts.

[patches70]

Its not a fantasy, its reality. Was England stripped of everything she had when the pound sterling was destroyed?

eh? We still use pound sterling...

Is history not taught anymore in England?




The pound sterling was once the reserve currency of the world-



but was demolished in 1976 to the point where even the Wall Street Journal had an article entitled-
"Goodbye, Great Britain. It was nice knowing you"

or in more recent history there was George Soros, also known as "the man who broke the Bank of England".

The point is that these currency destruction's happen all the time and the euro is not immune. Nor is the dollar. The ECB's actions are intended not to help Greece but to attempt to preserve the euro as a currency and the Eurozone. The bankers will try to make everyone believe that this is the "end of the world" and that we have to save the euro and the Eurozone or else we're all fucked, its bullshit. Its a lie.

This shit happens all the time, time after time, currency after currency, nation after nation. This is nothing new and its not the end of the world.

[mrswdk]

Next up: the Yuan

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

China isnt going to have any money left after all the EU countries go bankrupt...

[patches70]

lol. And what happens every time a Greek ship, truck, plane or anything else leaves the country on a trade run? Oops, it (and everything on board) has just been seized. Repeat ad nauseum.

Piracy? Naw, it won't happen ad nauseum. Agreements will be made, the debt will be settled one way or another (with creditors taking a major haircut and some even getting wiped out) and life goes on.

Oh, but those investors were given assurances by not only the Greek government but by the entire Eurozone that Greece was a reputable country. If Greece and its Eurozone friends didn't want to end up footing the bill for dodgy debts, they should have been honest with Greece's creditors at the outset. Their lies and deceit have come back to bite them. That's karma. Doesn't mean they get to shirk their debts.

What the f*ck? The Eurozone knew from the get go what the deal was. The private investors knew what the real deal was. Everyone knew that the asset prices were bogus and inflated and everyone knew that this fraud had to end one day. But until then plenty of people made good money. Those who didn't perform due diligence get what they deserve obviously. No one was honest during this whole mess. No one is not party of a guilty party and all of them deserve to get sent to the cleaners. No one comes out of this smelling like roses.

But given the choice between who gets screwed the most, between the average Greek citizen and the average Central Bank, I say screw the Central bank! It won't likely happen but if the technocrats want to push things too hard they'll find out the hard way just how hated they are. I would prefer to avoid bloodshed, even banker blood, but if someone's gotta go then I say off with the technocratic heads!

You know, mrswdlk, this day will come to China as well. There will be the day when the US screws over China for all the US debt China owns. China knows this obviously, they've been preparing for it for over a decade now. When that day comes, I'll laugh at your insistence that the US "pay her debt" and offer the rebuttal of "Molon labe" when you demand our assets seized.

The current modern fiat currency model is nearing the end of its life span. Its been a good run I suppose, almost fifty years which is longer than most fiat systems last. But this party is going to end and we'll all start up a brand new party and there will be dancing in the streets until whatever replaces the current model finally expires. Because we'll just keep making the mistake over and over.

[patches70]

Next up: the Yuan

Yeah, we'll find out in a few months when China formally demands that the yaun be officially added to the basket of currencies. I anticipate that it will be added, political pressures will insure that, but this will end up bring China and the US into direct conflict eventually over the one thing that matters most. Control of the medium in which human labor measured. The US isn't going to give up this control easily.

[mrswdk]

Oh, but those investors were given assurances by not only the Greek government but by the entire Eurozone that Greece was a reputable country. If Greece and its Eurozone friends didn't want to end up footing the bill for dodgy debts, they should have been honest with Greece's creditors at the outset. Their lies and deceit have come back to bite them. That's karma. Doesn't mean they get to shirk their debts.

What the f*ck? The Eurozone knew from the get go what the deal was. The private investors knew what the real deal was. Everyone knew that the asset prices were bogus and inflated and everyone knew that this fraud had to end one day. But until then plenty of people made good money. Those who didn't perform due diligence get what they deserve obviously. No one was honest during this whole mess. No one is not party of a guilty party and all of them deserve to get sent to the cleaners. No one comes out of this smelling like roses.

But given the choice between who gets screwed the most, between the average Greek citizen and the average Central Bank, I say screw the Central bank! It won't likely happen but if the technocrats want to push things too hard they'll find out the hard way just how hated they are. I would prefer to avoid bloodshed, even banker blood, but if someone's gotta go then I say off with the technocratic heads!

Viva la revolucion.

The Greek government can finger point all they like, but the facts are that they signed those credit deals, so they can't complain when people hold them to those deals.

You know, mrswdlk, this day will come to China as well. There will be the day when the US screws over China for all the US debt China owns. China knows this obviously, they've been preparing for it for over a decade now. When that day comes, I'll laugh at your insistence that the US "pay her debt" and offer the rebuttal of "Molon labe" when you demand our assets seized.

The US spends something like $25billion a year paying back debt to China. To put that in % terms, that's about 0.2% of China's economy (and will continue to shrink as a proportion as China continues to grow). If the US were to completely halt all payments, China would hardly notice.

Some Americans like to talk big about how tough and clever Uncle Sam would be, refusing to honor its debts to China, but the truth is that the only effect that sort of grandstanding would have is to completely undermine America's status as an AAA economy.

[mrswdk]

Next up: the Yuan

Yeah, we'll find out in a few months when China formally demands that the yaun be officially added to the basket of currencies. I anticipate that it will be added, political pressures will insure that, but this will end up bring China and the US into direct conflict eventually over the one thing that matters most. Control of the medium in which human labor measured. The US isn't going to give up this control easily.

Meh. The US is slowly losing its status as the global center of gravity. It can complain and stamp its feet all it likes, but that won't change anything.

[saxitoxin]

THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT CHINA

Anyway - banks may now be closed for the entire week, not just Monday ... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/1170 ... evels.html (if banks close for a week, what are the chances they'll ever reopen?)

The Greek police have ordered all their officers to cancel any upcoming vacations: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/world ... .html?_r=0

Greek Finance Minister 6 hours ago:



Three hours later the Greek government announced capital controls.

[mrswdk]

[2dimes]

Boring, I remember last time Greece went broke. Seriously anti climatic.

THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT CHINA

[waauw]

I think 'not saving Lehman Brothers' was evidence enough that how dangerous that plan is.

President Bush- "I had to abandon free market principles to save the free market". Remember that one? Ha! Disregarding the fact that we aren't really talking about a free market for a moment, what Bush really meant was- "I had to abandon the free market to protect vital (in our estimation) economic institutions and national security".

What happened to Lehman was natural and what would have happened had there been no intervention would have been a natural market correction that would have left some of the biggest financial players in the world bankrupt. How would the world look today had Bush let the correction happen?
Most likely not much different than today, minus the crippling world wide debt. It would have been a good thing to let it all go down as it should have because it was the financial institutions that abandoned free market principles in the first place and tried (and succeeded) in shifting the consequences of their malinvestments onto other parties.

In a bankruptcy, no wealth is destroyed (unlike shooting wars which actually destroy real wealth). The wealth is simply shifted to other parties. The parties that owned said wealth at the time didn't want that to happen. We'll never know how it would have turned out if we had let things run their course but I can safely say that it wouldn't have been the end of the world. The world would have spun on oblivious with new jockeys riding familiar horses.
This is what will happen with this event as well. There will be hysterics, exaggerations and fear mongering but the world will keep spinning around the sun and people will still be living on her and making due as we always have.
This is a mess, no doubt and it will eventually conclude how it was always going to conclude. Its not like there haven't been plenty of warnings and plenty of precedents throughout history regarding debt, fiat currencies and our current world economic system. It happened back in 1971 the last time and I bet not a one of you even remembers it happening, do you?

Thus as it goes when the webs are spun, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive. In the words of Nuland-
"f*ck the EU'.
Touche miss Nuland, and to that I add, "f*ck the fiat currency system". Let it all burn. I'll bring the marshmallows. There will be plenty of sticks lying around, the ones they used to use to beat Greece and other malcontents with.

I agree, that eventually on the long term things would work out, and that it might be inevitable. However that long term-prospect of getting back on your feet could've varied anywhere between a couple of months and a couple of decades. Assuming not much would have changed is ludicrous. At the end of the 1920's and throughout the 1930's extremist régimes came into power precisely because of serious economic downturn and countless people died of starvation as all their savings evaporated.

The financial system nowadays is even more interconnected than it was during the Great Depression. If the Keynesians didn't intervene the entire financial system would have gone into meltdown. This would have had far-reaching consequences for every single sector as well as for your personal pocket. If the financial sector goes bankrupt, so do governments, businesses and individuals. They are all interconnected. The financial sector is the backbone of modern society.

A financial meltdown would have been the metaphoric equivalent of pushing the reset button on the global economic and political balance. The only thing to survive would have been tangible assets and resource. The western world is much more dependent on the tertiary sector. Countries like China and Russia are more dependent on the primary and secondary sectors, providing a position of strength to them. These are the first sectors to rebound after any economic fall, especially the low-tech products asians produce in such mass. There is a general order in rebuilding an economic system that would most likely be disadvantageous to western hegemony.

Up until now the world has changed ever more into the disadvantage of the west. China has been diversifying out of fiat currency. They now own so many mines, so much silver and gold(though officially not announced yet), so many harbours and such a vast industry that it becomes ever more likely that they would come out the winner out of a great depression. The west has been trending in the opposite direction unfortunately.

[Phatscotty]

i have no idea about what's happening, but i have a hunch that when everything is said and done, the richer will be richer and the poorer will be poorer. once again.

go on, discuss the details, the ending is the same as always. i bet the plot was already written by shakespeare.

The lives of 'the poor' have got consistently better over the last couple of centuries. It's only because these people sit around comparing themselves to their society's richest 1% or 0.1% that they think their life sucks - if they were to compare their lives to those of their grandparents or great-grandparents, they'd see just how good they really have it.

I wonder how that might turn out where people sit around comparing themselves to slaves from centuries past?

[Phatscotty]

THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT CHINA

Anyway - banks may now be closed for the entire week, not just Monday ... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/1170 ... evels.html (if banks close for a week, what are the chances they'll ever reopen?)

The Greek police have ordered all their officers to cancel any upcoming vacations: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/world ... .html?_r=0

Greek Finance Minister 6 hours ago:



Three hours later the Greek government announced capital controls.

[saxitoxin]

After an 8-hour meeting, the Greek government has confirmed that all banks will remain closed until at least July 6 and the finance minister may decide to keep banks closed beyond July 6. ATM withdrawals will be limited to €60 per day at those ATMs that still have money.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/greek-bank ... -1.3131048

Meanwhile ...

Austria's Finance Minister said a Greek exit from the euro - or Grexit - "appeared almost inevitable now" and that this would only be possible if Athens first asked to leave the European Union and other countries agreed to its request.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/ ... 4020150628

[Metsfanmax]

It''s their fault too. Isn't that the whole point of Western democracy - all citizens play a role in running their country?

Greek people repeatedly voted for irresponsible governments and now they are paying the price for their irresponsible voting.

Sometimes we must maintain the legal fiction that the citizens are collectively responsible for a democratic country's actions, since there is nothing else meaningful that can be done. (These types of legal fictions are not uncommon.) However, as patches correctly points out, the vast majority of government officials in a democracy are unelected, and of the ones that are, even then most are not subject to the swings of partisan politics. It is only the ones at the top that are. However, even if were to accept that it is the people at the top, who are appointed by those who are elected, the average citizen isn't voting like that. The average citizen votes for an economic principle like "debt reduction" or "welfare expansion" rather than voting for specific central bank policies -- because the average citizen doesn't know enough to comment on the latter.

Then there is the issue of, what happens if the elected officials do something the citizens didn't even elect them to do in general? Like, imagine a hypothetical top government official elected by the people who happens to commit genocide against a particular group. Is the whole country guilty of war crimes because he is too? Likely the correct response is "no, but they are still legally responsible." As in, the government of Germany paying reparations to the Jews is just, as was the specific guilt of the Nazi high command for the Holocaust. But the citizenry cannot be guilty of genocide in this case, either as a legal principle or as a practical matter.

So the big grey area is then: if the politicians didn't lie about what they planned to do, but ended up pursuing economic objectives that were poisonous, who is responsible? And there is no easy answer.

[mrswdk]

It''s their fault too. Isn't that the whole point of Western democracy - all citizens play a role in running their country?

Greek people repeatedly voted for irresponsible governments and now they are paying the price for their irresponsible voting.

Sometimes we must maintain the legal fiction that the citizens are collectively responsible for a democratic country's actions

If it's fiction then why maintain it? For whose benefit?

[Dukasaur]

I hope they stick to their guns and refuse to pay. Riot, hang all the bankers, hang all the politicians. Have a total monetary collapse, do away with fiat currency, rebuild from the ground up with money that is backed by real goods. The transition will be difficult, but after a brief nightmare they should emerge on the other side stronger, healthier, and happier than ever before. Leave behind the phony economy of paper pushers and enter a new era where men once again expect only an honest day's pay for an honest day's work.

Unlikely, I know, but we are allowed to have dreams.

[mrswdk]

Leave behind the phony economy of paper pushers and enter a new era where men once again expect only an honest day's pay for an honest day's work.

Forging swords in their furnaces in return for some dubloons?