Greece: 48 Hours to the End

[GoranZ]

Sounds like a Jugoslav to me.

So he isn't Corsican pretending to be Canadian

[mrswdk]

You're the one who thinks Greece should pay the price, you're are the one who wants to hold Greece accountable.

I know, holding someone to promises that they made to you. What a ridiculous idea.

As I pointed out earlier, you're completely glossing over the fact that a country is not a someone. Who, in particular, should repay the debt, and if it is multiple people, how should the debt be apportioned?

The government should repay. They can raise the money in whatever ways they like, just so long as they repay it.

[mrswdk]

You're the one who thinks Greece should pay the price, you're are the one who wants to hold Greece accountable.

I know, holding someone to promises that they made to you. What a ridiculous idea.

And if the person making the promise says "f*ck you, I'm not holding/can't hold myself to that promise", WTF are you going to do about it then? Stomp your feet, cry?

Or would you say, "well screw it and screw you" and go your separate ways?

Of course, the second you stop acting like you live in a civilized society and start behaving like you are an animal in the jungle, the people you're dealing with will do the same.

Do you really think Greece is big and scary enough to play that game? Because I don't.

[saxitoxin]

Dateline: 2006

Poor Little Greece Has Better Health Care than the U.S.

The Greece medical care a few months later was much more thorough than it had been in the United States. "He spent the day before the operation undergoing tests, including one that discovered a heart murmur, and the day after the operation in the hospital being observed. Although he didn't have Greek health insurance, his final bill was only $700."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/blake-fle ... 31978.html

Dateline: 2012

Greek Unemployed Cut Off from Medical Care

Kostas Syrigos thought he had seen everything. But nothing prepared him for Elena, an unemployed woman whose breast cancer had been diagnosed a year before she came to him.

By that time, her cancer had grown to the size of an orange and broken through the skin, leaving a wound that she was draining with paper napkins. “When we saw her we were speechless,” said Dr. Syrigos, the chief of oncology at Sotiria General Hospital in central Athens.

With the state coffers drained, supplies have gotten so low that some patients have been forced to bring their own supplies, like stents and syringes, for treatments.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/25/world ... .html?_r=0

When the money keeps rolling in, you don't ask how.
Think of all the people guaranteed a good time now.
When the money keeps rolling out, you don't keep books.
You can tell you've done well by the happy, grateful looks.

[saxitoxin]

Greece is the house guest who refuses to leave ...

“We are taking advice and will certainly consider an injunction at the European Court of Justice. The EU treaties make no provision for euro exit and we refuse to accept it. Our membership is not negotiable,“ he told the Telegraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/econ ... rexit.html

[waauw]

You're taking this too personal. I'm not advocating anything an I'm not siding with anyone here. I'm merely mentioning that Greece's precariousness is much more complex than what several people here have been claiming. I'm not saying anything regarding what 'should be', only what 'is'.

Its not that precarious actually. A deal has to be made. For instance, if Greece owes someone a million dollars then Greece pays them $100K and that's that, the debt is done. And so on and so on. If you are owed a billion, you get a $100 million and have no further debt claims against Greece.

The creditors take a haircut (which is inevitable regardless), maybe not a 90% haircut but its going to be significant. After that, Greece has zero debt, gets to keep what she produces and and lives a lot more modestly in the future. Getting loans at that point won't be hard because Greece will have zero debt, but they'll pay through the nose for those loans. Not that the Greeks should be very interested in taking on new debt after the hell they went through.

But once that debt is gone then it is indeed wind at the sails for the Greeks. Hopefully they will be wiser.

The problem is, the ECB isn't too keen on taking a haircut, are they? Why? Because if that happens there will be a whole bunch of raised hands in the classroom looking to get their own deal, right? Spain, Italy and other will want the same deal or near to it. Then it all comes tumbling down after that, doesn't it?

The precarious situation isn't in Greece, its in the ECB and deservedly so, right? They are the ones who have over extended have they not? They are now in the position where their existence is in peril. Why are people yelling that Greece should lie in the bed they made but ignore the mess of the ECB and IMF's bed? Isn't their situation just as stupid, ill thought and foolish?

I agree the global system is unsustainable, but that doesn't change Greece's situation currently.

But its not "Greece's situation", as if they are the ones with the problem. Its the ECB's problem, isn't it? They are the ones who are really on the line. No matter how its tried to be spun that its all the fault of the Greeks, its actually the result of the ECB and IMF's decisions that we are at this point. As such, they are the ones who will ultimately have to pay the price for their malinvestment, their miscalculation and their idiocy, and rightfully so. They made bad loans, knew they were making bad loans, used bogus accounting and ratings systems they knew were bogus. They deserve to go belly up.

PS: As I mentioned before in this topic, it is highly likely that a collapse of the global financial system will be more beneficial for countries like China and Russia than it would be for the west.

Its going to be beneficial to everyone if what replaces it is a sound financial system. I know its hard to see, what we know today is what we've known all our lives and we are comfortable with it, but its unsound, unstable and ultimately destructive to a great majority of the people of the Earth and truly benefits only a small group of people.

Money was invented with the sole purpose of facilitating trade and commerce, not to enrich a select group of elite. We've long since forgotten what money was invented for and so few really understand what our currency is of how fiat currencies come into existence in the first place. When one sees the process they can't help but think of how stupid it is and sees immediately how such power is quickly abused.

Sound money is the only way forward, at least until mankind figures out how to convert energy into matter, then we won't need money anymore.

If yet another fiat currency system replaces it then it just starts the whole process over again and has the exact same end result. It doesn't matter if its the EU, the US, Russia or anyone else who is in charge of the system, it eventually goes critical and won't last more than a generation. As is the case with every fiat currency ever created throughout the entire history of human civilization.

What was it that Einstein said about the definition of insanity? Yeah, that's our modern financial system, the same spin on a very old fraud that always, I repeat, always collapses because exponential growth is by definition unstable, unsustainable and eventually collapses. And that is what our modern financial system is, exponential credit expansion and it always ends the same. Always.

Dude you make it sound like the dimmest of imbecils could solve all the of worlds economic woes. You're oversimplifying things by such a vast degree that you're disregarding the darker corners of human history and the entire political pillar in economics. People are not as friendly as you think. The world is far more competitive and greedy than your story cares to illustrate.

You even got the original purpose of money incomplete to benefit your views.

[DoomYoshi]

The solution has arrived:https://www.indiegogo.com/greek-bailout-fund.html#/story

[mrswdk]

lol

>raises money for Greece, spends half of it posting baskets of olives and cheese to donors

[DoomYoshi]

lol

>raises money for Greece, spends half of it posting baskets of olives and cheese to donors

Get it now before there is an export fee on the shit.

[mrswdk]

lol

>raises money for Greece, spends half of it posting baskets of olives and cheese to donors

Get it now before there is an export fee on the shit.

Nah, I'll wait until Greece goes bust and has to sell all that stuff for about 10 cents a go.

[saxitoxin]

- Greek banks will run out of cash on Monday; no more €20 notes in country
- contingency plans in place to seize 30% of bank deposits
- food and medicine running out
- looting begins in Athens
- NATO warns Greece, whatever happens, don't cut €1 from the defense budget

[riskllama]

I would hardly call that looting, saxi...

[nietzsche]

I would hardly call that looting, saxi...

[saxitoxin]

I would hardly call that looting, saxi...

Well what do you call this? This Greek government building doesn't even have a roof, that's how serious the cash crisis is right now.

[mrswdk]

I would hardly call that looting, saxi...

Well what do you call this? This Greek government building doesn't even have a roof, that's how serious the cash crisis is right now.

That's not the Greek government, silly, that's Disneyland.

[DaGip]

I would hardly call that looting, saxi...

Well what do you call this? This Greek government building doesn't even have a roof, that's how serious the cash crisis is right now.

That's not the Greek government, silly, that's Disneyland.

And the women don't have any arms anymore!

[waauw]

Another D-day today. I hope the greeks vote "no", so we can finally kick them out of the eurozone.
If you vote communist party in power, you shouldn't be part of a capitalist union.

[saxitoxin]

projections are NO 61%, YES 39%

Asked whether a meeting of the Eurogroup was planned for Monday, the official, speaking on condition of anonymity, told Reuters: "No way. (The ministers) would not know what to discuss."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/ ... T420150705

[waauw]

projections are NO 61%, YES 39%

Asked whether a meeting of the Eurogroup was planned for Monday, the official, speaking on condition of anonymity, told Reuters: "No way. (The ministers) would not know what to discuss."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/ ... T420150705

Merkel and Hollande already have a meeting on monday, which poses a problem for Greece because they need a euro-group decision as early as possible considering their banks are running out of liquidity tomorrow.(according to the head of the greek financial sector)

[Oneyed]

congratulation to prople of Greece.
Greece as maker of european culture and democracy again give us lection and hope.

Oneyed

[waauw]

The germans pretty much have the same opinion as my own country. The Greece-issue has become a fight between european right wing vs european left wing. Liberals and nationalists vs socialists and communists. The right wing wants to kick Greece out and socialists want to do as they always want to do, spend more money as if there is no end.

Go Merkel!

Alles deutet darauf hin, dass die Griechen die Reformvorschläge der Gläubiger abgelehnt haben. Mehrere deutsche Politiker fordern nun den Rauswurf Griechenlands aus dem Euro.

Das Ergebnis des Referendums sei "ein klares Signal, dass Griechenland nicht auf die Hilfe der Geldgeber angewiesen sein will", sagt der CSU-Europapolitiker Markus Ferber. "Das Land und die Regierung haben die helfende Hand ausgeschlagen." Deshalb müsse Griechenland nun die Rettung aus eigener Kraft stemmen(The country and the government have refused the helping hand." Thus the only solution is for them to save themselves on their own efforts) - was allerdings nicht möglich sei, wie Ferber einräumt. Die Konsequenz? "Die einzige Chance Griechenlands ist es jetzt, den Euro zu verlassen"("Greece's only chance now is to leave the Euro.", sagt Ferber im Gespräch mit SPIEGEL ONLINE.

Ähnlich äußerte sich der FDP-Politiker Alexander Graf Lambsdorff: "Kanzlerin Merkel und andere müssen jetzt den Grexit organisieren."(Chancellor Merkel and co must now organise the Greece's departure") Dazu gehöre allerdings auch das "Abfedern der Verwerfungen", die ein solcher Schritt zur Folge haben werde.

(some blabla of socialists telling their usual bullshit)Udo Bullmann, Vorsitzender der SPD-Gruppe im Europäischen Parlament, warnt dagegen vor einem solchen Schritt. "Es darf jetzt keinen Automatismus geben, der zum Bruch der Eurozone führt." Es sei unverständlich, wie es überhaupt so weit kommen konnte angesichts der Tatsache, dass die Positionen in den Verhandlungen zuletzt nahe beieinander lagen. "Bruchpiloten und blutige Amateure haben uns in diese Situation gebracht", sagt Bullmann. Jetzt müssten die Staats- und Regierungschefs die Situation retten: "Das kann man nicht mehr den Finanzministern überlassen."

Die Linke begrüßt das Ergebnis des Referendums. "Die Griechinnen und Griechen haben sich zum zweiten Mal gegen die katastrophale Politik der sozialen Kürzungen und der wirtschaftlichen Verwüstung gewehrt", erklärte Parteichef Bernd Riexinger. "Sie haben Nein zu weiterer Austerität gesagt, Nein zu einer falschen Medizin, die immer nur kränker macht." Das Votum legitimiere die Verhandlungsführung der linken Regierungspartei Syriza von Ministerpräsident Alexis Tsipras. "Die Verhandlungsführer müssen jetzt umgehend an den Tisch zurückkehren und den demokratischen Willen der griechischen Bevölkerung respektieren", forderte Riexinger.

"Tsipras und die Regierungschefs der Eurostaaten müssen sich jetzt sehr schnell zusammensetzen und Wege aus der Krise finden", sagt Rebecca Harms, Fraktionschefin der Grünen im europäischen Parlament. "Auch wenn das sicher wahnsinnig schwierig wird." Notfalls müssten sich die Gläubiger auf weitere Finanzhilfen an Griechenland einlassen. "In dieser Situation muss der Stärkere nachgeben."

Doch neue Verhandlungen, etwa über ein drittes Hilfspaket für Griechenland, wären nach Meinung Lambsdorffs "ein verheerendes politisches Signal an Länder wie Spanien, Portugal oder Irland, die teils harte Sparprogramme absolviert haben." Das Ergebnis des Referendums sei "ein Affront gegen alle anderen Eurostaaten".

Allerdings hat die griechische Regierung in den vergangenen Tagen mehrfach klargemacht, den Euro keineswegs verlassen zu wollen - und betont, dass kein Land gegen seinen Willen herausgeworfen werden könne. SPD-Politiker Bullmann stimmt dem zu: "Es gibt keinen juristischen Weg, Griechenland aus der Eurozone auszuschließen. Das ist in den Verträgen nicht vorgesehen."

"Griechenlands Austritt wird den Euro stärken"

"Das ist in der Tat ein schwieriger Punkt", räumt Lambsdorff ein. Allerdings: Sollten die Geldgeber - die Europäische Zentralbank (EZB), die Eurogruppe und der Internationale Währungsfonds (IWF) - ihre Hilfen einstellen, müsste Griechenland voraussichtlich schon in wenigen Tagen eine Parallelwährung einführen. "Dann ist der Grexit praktisch da", meint Lambsdorff. "Es liegt dann am restlichen Europa, die Trennung auch formell zu vollziehen."

Ferber hätte dagegen offenbar nichts einzuwenden: "Der Grexit wäre ein Signal an andere Staaten, dass wir es mit unseren Regeln ernst meinen." Die Milde, die Europa bei der Aufnahme Griechenlands in den Euro habe walten lassen, sei bei späteren Erweiterungen der Eurozone Gott sei Dank nicht mehr angewandt worden. "Deshalb", meint Ferber, "wird der Austritt Griechenlands den Euro eher stärken."("The Grexit would be a signal to other states, that we're serious when implementing our rules." The mildness, as Europe showed when letting Greece enter the Euro, would God thankfully not occur any more. "Thus," says Ferber, "would euro only get stronger if we kicked Greece out.")

Kritiker warnen dagegen davor, dass eine griechische Staatspleite zu einer massiven humanitären Notlage führen könnte. Unter anderem könnten wichtige Importgüter wie Medikamente, Treibstoff und Nahrungsmittel knapp werden. Dass die EU Griechenland in einer solchen Situation im Stich lässt, gilt als ausgeschlossen. "Natürlich müssen wir Griechenland dann helfen", sagt Ferber. "Aber es gibt einen Unterschied zwischen einer Transferunion und humanitärer Hilfe. Wir würden dann dort helfen(We're willing to send Greece our humanitarian aid organisations once Greece is gone. The greeks will experience a humanitarian disaster with a shortage of food, fuel and medicines., wo wirklich Not herrscht, und kein Geld in ein defektes System pumpen."

Auch Lambsdorff befürwortet Hilfen an Griechenland, um den Übergang vom Euro zu einer neuen Währung zu erleichtern. "Dennoch wäre das am Ende die bessere Lösung, weil Griechenland dann die Drachme gegen den Euro abwerten und langfristig wieder wettbewerbsfähig werden könnte." [/b]

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/reaktionen-auf-griechen-referendum-politiker-fordern-grexit-a-1042188.html

[Fruitcake]

You have just got to love those Greeks.

Those who have read my posts in the past will know I have been shorting the Euro for some time. This is the icing on the cake.

[Fruitcake]

Posted this in the Cyprus thread, but think it is relevant here as well:

Ok Fruit, what's happened? Besides me not getting my heated shop... Has Cyprus gained any economic ground?

It's been some time, but seeing as we have the Greek crisis occurring, I thought an update on Cyprus might be a good idea after the torture those people went through a couple of years back.

Laiki Bank collapsed (of course) but the Bank of Cyprus has been steadily getting it together. However, about half the loan book transferred went into default. Offshore and regional financial services are starting to thrive again and new business registrations are well up.

However, the pure banking sector is thought already to have shrunk by half. Most think that's a good thing, though for all of that, the business model of the country has not significantly changed.

Looking at the 'offshore and regional financial services, it is interesting that Vlad the impaler has recently sanctioned a €2.5 billion loan to Cyprus (he doesn't give up...or was this payback for something else one wonders....answers best kept to yourselves).

Russian money buying assets on the island has been steadily increasing for the last 15 months, so it would seem all is forgiven from that sector.

I am something of a philosopher when my money isn't involved (as it no longer is as my broker has orders to clear my positions tomorrow - Monday) so here's my take on the Cyprus crisis compared , albeit briefly, to the Greek.

There was €6.3 billion withdrawn from the Cypriot banks April 2013. But deposits soon started to return. Foreign investors started to come back in (of course, who wouldn't with asset prices being what they then were.) Bank of Cyprus raised €1 billion from them in July 2014, and Hellenic Bank sold over half of its shares to Belarussian and American firms the same year.The real economy suffered much less than expected but continued to contract until the end of last year. Tourism took a dive but that has recovered to pre crisis levels this year.

Although a record €6.3 billion was withdrawn from banks, on net, in April 2013, deposits soon started to return. Foreign investors came back. Bank of Cyprus raised €1 billion from them in July 2014, and Hellenic Bank sold over half of its shares to Belarussian and American firms the same year. The real economy also suffered much less damage than expected (though it did continue to contract through the end of 2014). Tourism suffered a little during the crisis but has more than caught up since, with tourist arrivals in the first five months of this year increasing almost 10% year-on-year. Although the financial sector has taken a big hit, the growth of the island's business-services industry has begun to make up for the loss.

Is all this applicable to the present Greek crisis? Well, Cypriots only suffered six days of uncertainty between rejecting and agreeing to a bail-out. Greeks, on the other hand face a very different dynamic. They have been in the shitter for 5 years or more already. They are much further down the road than Cyprus ever was. However, one parallel that should be noted is that Vlad has been sending senior bods down to Athens for some time now. The Russian ambassador to Athens was one of the first visitors received by Alexis Tsipras upon his election victory.

My take? I think Grexit is now a near certainty and that Vlad will increase his influence further around the Med. Merkel et al can try all they like, they should never have sold Greece short.

[saxitoxin]

Greece may say "to hell with the drachma" and just print all the euros it needs.

They want a new team installed, one that is willing to draw on the central bank's secret reserves, and to take the provocative step in extremis of creating euros.

"The first thing we must do is take away the keys to his office. We have to restore stability to the system, with or without the help of the ECB. We have the capacity to print €20 notes," said one.

Such action would require invoking national emergency powers - by decree - and "requisitioning" the Bank of Greece for several months.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/econ ... rency.html

What will Germany, Denmark, France, Italy, etc. do once Greece starts flooding the world with, increasingly worthless, euros?

Such illegal money creation recalls what happened in Yugoslavia in the early 1990s, during one of the worst hyperinflations in history when prices increased by the astounding 5 quadrillion percent between October 1993 and January 1994. The Yugoslav equivalent of the ECB at the time had completely lost control over money creation, while central banks in Serbia, Montenegro, Vojvodina, and Kosovo – in a position similar to that of the Bank of Greece – were heavily printing new quantities of Yugoslav currency.

Turning on the euro printing presses in Greece in a similar way would be less painful for the new leftist government than going back to the drachma, as the main effect would be felt abroad. Instead of the government's massive debt balance being paid with Greek savings, it would dilute the purchasing power of the entire eurozone.

http://www.europac.com/voices/what_if_g ... s_it_needs

I know what I'm going to do ... buy that villa in Tuscany I'll finally be able to afford. Of course, I guess I'll need to learn Russian to communicate with my neighbors.

[waauw]

Greece may say "to hell with the drachma" and just print all the euros it needs.

They want a new team installed, one that is willing to draw on the central bank's secret reserves, and to take the provocative step in extremis of creating euros.

"The first thing we must do is take away the keys to his office. We have to restore stability to the system, with or without the help of the ECB. We have the capacity to print €20 notes," said one.

Such action would require invoking national emergency powers - by decree - and "requisitioning" the Bank of Greece for several months.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/econ ... rency.html

What will Germany, Denmark, France, Italy, etc. do once Greece starts flooding the world with, increasingly worthless, euros?

Such illegal money creation recalls what happened in Yugoslavia in the early 1990s, during one of the worst hyperinflations in history when prices increased by the astounding 5 quadrillion percent between October 1993 and January 1994. The Yugoslav equivalent of the ECB at the time had completely lost control over money creation, while central banks in Serbia, Montenegro, Vojvodina, and Kosovo – in a position similar to that of the Bank of Greece – were heavily printing new quantities of Yugoslav currency.

Turning on the euro printing presses in Greece in a similar way would be less painful for the new leftist government than going back to the drachma, as the main effect would be felt abroad. Instead of the government's massive debt balance being paid with Greek savings, it would dilute the purchasing power of the entire eurozone.

http://www.europac.com/voices/what_if_g ... s_it_needs

I know what I'm going to do ... buy that villa in Tuscany I'll finally be able to afford. Of course, I guess I'll need to learn Russian to communicate with my neighbors.

Less painful for the new leftist government? Countries have gone to war for less.