waauw wrote:Less painful for the new leftist government? Countries have gone to war for less.
Go to war with what?
“German soldiers mostly don’t know how to use their weapons.” They “have no or little experience driving armored vehicles.” For German field commanders, “the necessity and ways [to protect their units from roadside bombs] are to a large extent either unknown or incorrect.”
These are quotes from a series of secret internal reports on the German army, the Bundeswehr, whose 5,000 soldiers in the northern Kunduz sector of Afghanistan were supposed to help the U.S. rout the Taliban and stabilize the country over the past 10 years.
The secret reports bemoan German soldiers’ outdated training and antiquated, insufficient equipment. German forces could not operate if it weren’t for Ukrainian cargo planes and American helicopters and their U.S. Army crews, most crucially the Chinook troop transports and Black Hawk MedEvac helicopters that ensure Bundeswehr soldiers can get into and out of their battles quickly and safely.
waauw wrote:Less painful for the new leftist government? Countries have gone to war for less.
Go to war with what?
“German soldiers mostly don’t know how to use their weapons.” They “have no or little experience driving armored vehicles.” For German field commanders, “the necessity and ways [to protect their units from roadside bombs] are to a large extent either unknown or incorrect.”
These are quotes from a series of secret internal reports on the German army, the Bundeswehr, whose 5,000 soldiers in the northern Kunduz sector of Afghanistan were supposed to help the U.S. rout the Taliban and stabilize the country over the past 10 years.
The secret reports bemoan German soldiers’ outdated training and antiquated, insufficient equipment. German forces could not operate if it weren’t for Ukrainian cargo planes and American helicopters and their U.S. Army crews, most crucially the Chinook troop transports and Black Hawk MedEvac helicopters that ensure Bundeswehr soldiers can get into and out of their battles quickly and safely.
Are you seriously claiming the totality of the entire eurozone could not go to war with Greece even if it wanted to? Don't be ridiculous.
You're acting as if Greece is a global superpower that can't be touched. Do you think europe can't stop puny little Greece if the greeks were to wage economic warfare on the eurozone?
waauw wrote:Less painful for the new leftist government? Countries have gone to war for less.
Go to war with what?
“German soldiers mostly don’t know how to use their weapons.” They “have no or little experience driving armored vehicles.” For German field commanders, “the necessity and ways [to protect their units from roadside bombs] are to a large extent either unknown or incorrect.”
These are quotes from a series of secret internal reports on the German army, the Bundeswehr, whose 5,000 soldiers in the northern Kunduz sector of Afghanistan were supposed to help the U.S. rout the Taliban and stabilize the country over the past 10 years.
The secret reports bemoan German soldiers’ outdated training and antiquated, insufficient equipment. German forces could not operate if it weren’t for Ukrainian cargo planes and American helicopters and their U.S. Army crews, most crucially the Chinook troop transports and Black Hawk MedEvac helicopters that ensure Bundeswehr soldiers can get into and out of their battles quickly and safely.
Are you seriously claiming the totality of the entire eurozone could not go to war with Greece even if it wanted to? Don't be ridiculous.
You're acting as if Greece is a global superpower that can't be touched. Do you think europe can't stop puny little Greece if the greeks were to wage economic warfare on the eurozone?
How would they get to Greece? The last I checked, there's not a single eurozone state that shares a land border with Greece. Most EU armies are garrison armies. I seriously doubt there's a single state in the eurozone that has the capability to physically move more than a division beyond its own borders in a land operation during peacetime. But now you're talking about the EU staging the largest amphibious landing since WW2; putting 200,000 troops on Greek beaches under fire. It would take a decade for the EU to develop that capability.
It's the same reason Canada isn't concerned of ever being attacked by Brazil. Brazil has the men to conquer Canada; it just doesn't have anyway to get them there.
Last edited by saxitoxin on Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism
Seriously what is it with everybody here thinking Greece is innocent and did not bring this upon themselves. Why does everybody think europeans haven't shown even a shred of compassion? What do you think would happen if countries like Germany would hold a referendum on whether or not to keep supplying money to Greece and pass the bill to their own taxpayers?
Loaning money to Greece, means they themselves have to implement more austerity measures in Greece's stead. Do you honestly think Greece is the only european country with austerity measures? Even the richer nations need austerity measures.
waauw wrote:Seriously what is it with everybody here thinking Greece is innocent and did not bring this upon themselves.
If an adult man gives a toddler a gun, and the toddler shoots someone with it, whose fault is it? The toddler for shooting the person, or the adult man who gave the toddler the gun?
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism
saxitoxin wrote:How would they get to Greece? The last I checked, there's not a single eurozone state that shares a land border with Greece. Most EU armies are garrison armies. I seriously doubt there's a single state in the eurozone that has the capability to physically move more than a division beyond its own borders in a land operation during peacetime. But now you're talking about the EU staging the largest amphibious landing since WW2; putting 200,000 troops on Greek beaches under fire. Only the U.S. and maybe Russia have the ships and equipment to do anything close to that. And it definitely isn't going to happen with a rag-tag group of 20 under-equipped, under-trained parade armies, speaking 20 different languages, and reporting to 20 different commanders.
europe doesn't have to land 200.000 troops to take out Greece. This isn't the 1940's. There are more soffisticated techniques and you know it.
FYI, you're the one suggesting Greece would purposelly try and bankrupt the rest of europe through inflationary means and thus crash the entire global economy. And all this without any effective retribution.
ps: where do you think Greece is buying its military equipment? Germany is supposed to deliver 2 submarines to Greece and France is due to deliver helicopters.
waauw wrote:Seriously what is it with everybody here thinking Greece is innocent and did not bring this upon themselves.
If an adult man gives a toddler a gun, and the toddler shoots someone with it, whose fault is it? The toddler for shooting the person, or the adult man who gave the toddler the gun?
That must be the most ridiculous analogy I've ever read. Greece is not a toddler, they have sufficient grown-ups who should know better. FYI it's an american bank that helped Greece into bankruptcy. Go visit Goldman Sachs. And it's the US that holds the biggest representation within the IMF.
waauw wrote:FYI, you're the one suggesting Greece would purposelly try and bankrupt the rest of europe through inflationary means and thus crash the entire global economy. And all this without any effective retribution.
actually it was the Daily Telegraph and some firm called Euro Pacific Capital
waauw wrote:That must be the most ridiculous analogy I've ever read. Greece is not a toddler, they have sufficient grown-ups who should know better.
doesn't look like it from where I'm sitting
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism
waauw wrote:FYI, you're the one suggesting Greece would purposelly try and bankrupt the rest of europe through inflationary means and thus crash the entire global economy. And all this without any effective retribution.
actually it was the Daily Telegraph and some firm called Euro Pacific Capital
waauw wrote:That must be the most ridiculous analogy I've ever read. Greece is not a toddler, they have sufficient grown-ups who should know better.
doesn't look like it from where I'm sitting
Then apparently you're the toddler. And I quote:
saxitoxin wrote:Greece may say "to hell with the drachma" and just print all the euros it needs.
What will Germany, Denmark, France, Italy, etc. do once Greece starts flooding the world with, increasingly worthless, euros?
You did not quote this. You wrote that yourself and you know full well that what you post, reflects upon yourself unless you expressly mention the contrary. A while ago oneyed kept posting videos from nazist sources hating on all muslims. What do you think that made oneyed look like? What if I were to post anti-american propaganda articles. Wouldn't that reflect on me as being anti-american?
waauw wrote:FYI, you're the one suggesting Greece would purposelly try and bankrupt the rest of europe through inflationary means and thus crash the entire global economy. And all this without any effective retribution.
actually it was the Daily Telegraph and some firm called Euro Pacific Capital
waauw wrote:That must be the most ridiculous analogy I've ever read. Greece is not a toddler, they have sufficient grown-ups who should know better.
doesn't look like it from where I'm sitting
Then apparently you're the toddler. And I quote:
saxitoxin wrote:Greece may say "to hell with the drachma" and just print all the euros it needs.
What will Germany, Denmark, France, Italy, etc. do once Greece starts flooding the world with, increasingly worthless, euros?
You did not quote this. You wrote that yourself and you know full well that what you post, reflects upon yourself unless you expressly mention the contrary. A while ago oneyed kept posting videos from nazist sources hating on all muslims. What do you think that made oneyed look like? What if I were to post anti-american propaganda articles. Wouldn't that reflect on me as being anti-american?
I'm not sure the Daily Telegraph is a Nazi propaganda paper, though Symmetry might disagree.
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism
waauw wrote:Seriously what is it with everybody here thinking Greece is innocent and did not bring this upon themselves.
If an adult man gives a toddler a gun, and the toddler shoots someone with it, whose fault is it? The toddler for shooting the person, or the adult man who gave the toddler the gun?
Interesting... Why is it the Greek are analogous to toddlers here?
waauw wrote:Seriously what is it with everybody here thinking Greece is innocent and did not bring this upon themselves.
Greece is indeed innocent, after all she was only spending someone's money... And that someone didn't check if Greece is able to pay back its debt.
waauw wrote:Why does everybody think europeans haven't shown even a shred of compassion? What do you think would happen if countries like Germany would hold a referendum on whether or not to keep supplying money to Greece and pass the bill to their own taxpayers?
Germany first needs to return the money she asked from poorest European states for saving Greece... After all French and German banks had vast majority of Greek debt before the crisis erupted in 2008.
waauw wrote:Loaning money to Greece, means they themselves have to implement more austerity measures in Greece's stead. Do you honestly think Greece is the only european country with austerity measures? Even the richer nations need austerity measures.
Greek austerity measures is not what the problem is... the problem is giving someone money that cant return them.
P.S. EU got what it deserved... all the way. I hope it learn the lesson... The lesson is: "Stop giving money to incapable governments"
waauw wrote:Seriously what is it with everybody here thinking Greece is innocent and did not bring this upon themselves. Why does everybody think europeans haven't shown even a shred of compassion? What do you think would happen if countries like Germany would hold a referendum on whether or not to keep supplying money to Greece and pass the bill to their own taxpayers?
Loaning money to Greece, means they themselves have to implement more austerity measures in Greece's stead. Do you honestly think Greece is the only european country with austerity measures? Even the richer nations need austerity measures.
This is what banks do. They give out easy credit to people in need of ordinary living expenses, knowing full well that not one man in a thousand has the fortitude to turn down easy money when he's desperate. Then, when he has accumulated enough debt that there is no longer any plausible way he could ever pay it back, he is in effect a slave. He can spend the rest of his life paying the interest on his debt, never able to get near the principle, never again having hope of moving forward, never having any chance of building up some capital and moving into the ruling class.
Something like 30 million people in North America are locked in that form of debt slavery, and something like 50 million more are damn close to it. Don't know what the numbers are in Europe, but probably not far behind. The banker is no different than the heroin pusher. He knowingly and deliberately supplies people with something that he hopes will lead to a lifetime of addiction and ultimately slavery to him.
At least when it happens to a person, he knows that one day death will set him free. But nations don't expire. If Greece was to accept this premise that it should continue to pay the interest on a debt that it has no chance of ever reducing, it would be condemning all of its citizens to slavery for all eternity, including not just those who spent the money in the past, and not just those voting today, but all Greeks forever, until an asteroid drop or rising sea levels or nuclear war would release them from their contract. It would be absolutely unconscionable for someone to put that kind of burden on their future generations.
The chance of default is inherent in every debt. If you don't like the possibility, don't lend money. If you're in the business of lending money, you know you are in the business of getting people hooked with short-term pleasure and setting them up for long-term pain, and you deserve whatever misfortune comes your way.
“Life is a shipwreck, but we must not forget to sing in the lifeboats.” ― Voltaire
All Greece has to do is circle the wagons and hold on. They can get help from Russia, China, even the US if she needs. The Eurozone won't invade Greece, not a chance in hell.
Who the f*ck of you Europeans are willing to fight for Draghi, Lagarde or Juncker? Not fight as in a figurative sense, but enlist, train, kill and possibly die for? Hahahah! Like to see how many of you Europeans will line up for that.
The pressure is on the ECB. The longer it goes where Greece doesn't pay the harder it gets for the ECB. The IMF confirmed without any doubt left what everyone already knows, Greece cannot pay the debt. No amount of shaming, finger wagging or threats can get blood from a stone. The IMF stated quite clearly in their report that Greece must have debt relief. That means someone is taking a hit, and by someone that means the ECB.
Its not Greece's fault that the ECB turned what was privately owned Greek debt into public debt as it was early on. That's what is the real danger. The ECB created this systemic mess, not the Greeks. Greece's default means exposure risks for Spain, Italy, France and Germany of 17, 24, 27 and 35 billion euros respectively. The first three can't afford that hit at all. Spain topples, then Italy then France and Germany gets holding the bag.
This is not Greece's fault at all. The ECB decided to structure like this, shifting the liability and risk from private holders to public debt.
The debt can't be collected, but before the ECB monetized the Greek debt, a default would have ruined private individuals and firms.
So this insistence that Greece pay its debts is the equivalent of holding a gun to one's own head and threatening to pull the trigger if the Greeks don't pay, as Handelsblatt illustrated (Translation: "Give me the money or I'll shoot")-
As long as the Greeks stay united they'll prevail, they'll get real debt relief, creditors will take the hit (i.e. the ECB) and European governments will have to explain to angry voters why they chose to go along with the likes of a Mario Draghi idea to put the European taxpayers on the hook for an obviously unpayable debt.
And the US ought to take a good hard look at this mess because we are in the same boat. We can just paper over the debt and kick the can longer than the EU could, but there will be a day when that can can't be kicked anymore and we'll go through the same thing as Greece. This Eu crackup will only hasten that day to come.
If Europe lets the same fucks who got them into this mess to "solve" this then they'll just screw themselves more.
waauw wrote:Go visit Goldman Sachs.
Oh yeah, Sachs is a rogue element in this mess. They are true scumbags without a doubt. They helped cook the books for Greece to get them in the EU in the first place. Hey, BTW, Mario Draghi, former Goldman Sachs employee. And he's the guy you have in charge of getting the EU out of this mess! Bwahahahaha!!!
Goldman Sachs' list of sins is long indeed and the list is long of former Sachs employees who are heading Central banks around the world. I'm all for putting a lasso around Goldman Sachs and hogtying those fuckers. Oh the stories that could be told of their shenanigans and nobody gives a f*ck. Their kind of personnel revolving door with governments around the world is a huge cause of all this. Though most people only focus on Sachs' personnel in the US gov, they actually have people in high places all around the world. They are just as bad in Europe as they are in the US.
To borrow a new word created not long ago named after yet another (in)famous former Goldman Sachs employee, The EU is about to get corzined.*
warmonger1981 wrote:Sounds like a Goldman Sachs conspiracy. We all know that people who belong to a certain alumni would never conspire to create certain situations.
No conspiracy that I am aware, only the result of unethical, radically creative and sometimes illegal obsession with greed. Just backroom deals with people who know and have worked together in the past working usually to short term goals, namely making money by murdering and milking muppets and sheep. Or I guess you could look at it from Adam Smith's POV-
"People of the same trade seldom meet together even for merriment and diversion but the conversation ends at a conspiracy against the public." -Adam Smith
Goldman Sachs looks out for Goldman Sachs and doesn't care who gets trampled underfoot. If they are the Illuminati (or whatever one calls the supposed Global conspiracy) I cannot say, I have no evidence of such.
Its more of a case of immoral and unethical people in positions of power who use that power to further enrich themselves. Such endeavors while often bring short term profit also often enough lead to long term problems and collapses.
Don't worry, waauw, this forum might be full of communist thieves in Robin Hood masks but the board tables of the EU, IMF and multinational banks are not. Greece can act like a petulant child, but it will be held to the debts it has acquired.
patches70 wrote:They can get help from Russia, China, even the US if she needs.
lol, dream on. If Greece were to throw up the barricades and say 'we're not repaying your money, come and get us', why would Russia, the US or China help them?
mrswdk wrote:Don't worry, waauw, this forum might be full of communist thieves in Robin Hood masks but the board tables of the EU, IMF and multinational banks are not. Greece can act like a petulant child, but it will be held to the debts it has acquired.
patches70 wrote:They can get help from Russia, China, even the US if she needs.
lol, dream on. If Greece were to throw up the barricades and say 'we're not repaying your money, come and get us', why would Russia, the US or China help them?
Why has China been handing out interest-free loans to Ethiopia and Nigeria, or Russia dropping cash on Cyprus?
In 1948 the Policy Planning Staff laid-out U.S. grand strategy for the next 60 years; it said U.S. security required the Americans to neutralize four power centers: the USSR, Japan, Britain, and Germany. Through destruction and dependence, the U.S. has taken care of the first three. Germany was supposed to have been castrated by integrating it into a united Europe where its voice would be a minority, ergo U.S. starting the pendulum swinging with the European Coal and Steel Community. The stability and growth of the EU is the highest priority for the U.S. and neither of those objectives can be achieved if Greece has just enough cash to continue on its drunken bender.
I recommend John Gaddis' 1982 book Strategies of Containment for more on this topic.
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism
mrswdk wrote:Don't worry, waauw, this forum might be full of communist thieves in Robin Hood masks but the board tables of the EU, IMF and multinational banks are not. Greece can act like a petulant child, but it will be held to the debts it has acquired.
patches70 wrote:They can get help from Russia, China, even the US if she needs.
lol, dream on. If Greece were to throw up the barricades and say 'we're not repaying your money, come and get us', why would Russia, the US or China help them?
Why has China been handing out interest-free loans to Ethiopia and Nigeria, or Russia dropping cash on Cyprus?
China has been making friends with African governments because the pay-off is Chinese firms being given lucrative resource exploitation and construction contracts. What does Greece have to offer that would make it worth giving them large amounts of money that will never be seen again?
mrswdk wrote:Don't worry, waauw, this forum might be full of communist thieves in Robin Hood masks but the board tables of the EU, IMF and multinational banks are not. Greece can act like a petulant child, but it will be held to the debts it has acquired.
patches70 wrote:They can get help from Russia, China, even the US if she needs.
lol, dream on. If Greece were to throw up the barricades and say 'we're not repaying your money, come and get us', why would Russia, the US or China help them?
Why has China been handing out interest-free loans to Ethiopia and Nigeria, or Russia dropping cash on Cyprus?
China has been making friends with African governments because the pay-off is Chinese firms being given lucrative resource exploitation and construction contracts. What does Greece have to offer that would make it worth giving them large amounts of money that will never be seen again?
I answered in words 20+
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism
saxitoxin wrote:The stability and growth of the EU is the highest priority for the U.S. and neither of those objectives can be achieved if Greece has just enough cash to continue on its drunken bender.
Why does that mean the US would give Greece anything?
saxitoxin wrote:The stability and growth of the EU is the highest priority for the U.S. and neither of those objectives can be achieved if Greece has just enough cash to continue on its drunken bender.
Why does that mean the US would give Greece anything?
I have no idea. That seems like a strange prediction, mrswdk.
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism
waauw wrote:Seriously what is it with everybody here thinking Greece is innocent and did not bring this upon themselves. Why does everybody think europeans haven't shown even a shred of compassion? What do you think would happen if countries like Germany would hold a referendum on whether or not to keep supplying money to Greece and pass the bill to their own taxpayers?
Loaning money to Greece, means they themselves have to implement more austerity measures in Greece's stead. Do you honestly think Greece is the only european country with austerity measures? Even the richer nations need austerity measures.
This is what banks do. They give out easy credit to people in need of ordinary living expenses, knowing full well that not one man in a thousand has the fortitude to turn down easy money when he's desperate. Then, when he has accumulated enough debt that there is no longer any plausible way he could ever pay it back, he is in effect a slave. He can spend the rest of his life paying the interest on his debt, never able to get near the principle, never again having hope of moving forward, never having any chance of building up some capital and moving into the ruling class.
Something like 30 million people in North America are locked in that form of debt slavery, and something like 50 million more are damn close to it. Don't know what the numbers are in Europe, but probably not far behind. The banker is no different than the heroin pusher. He knowingly and deliberately supplies people with something that he hopes will lead to a lifetime of addiction and ultimately slavery to him.
At least when it happens to a person, he knows that one day death will set him free. But nations don't expire. If Greece was to accept this premise that it should continue to pay the interest on a debt that it has no chance of ever reducing, it would be condemning all of its citizens to slavery for all eternity, including not just those who spent the money in the past, and not just those voting today, but all Greeks forever, until an asteroid drop or rising sea levels or nuclear war would release them from their contract. It would be absolutely unconscionable for someone to put that kind of burden on their future generations.
The chance of default is inherent in every debt. If you don't like the possibility, don't lend money. If you're in the business of lending money, you know you are in the business of getting people hooked with short-term pleasure and setting them up for long-term pain, and you deserve whatever misfortune comes your way.
Sure you're right in that aspect? But what's the solution? Give up? Let the entire global financial system collapse? If that happens, the world will endure a crisis that has never been witnessed in history. Not at this scale. If european banks fall, so do american banks, japanese banks, australian banks, etc.
