Anonymous Declares War on Trump

[Symmetry]

Well, I went kasich, but now impossible for him to make it, brokered convention my ass, not sure about general election, Cruz better hit high gear, like most feel about trump, I feel about billary, anybody but.except in contested convention if they put up Romney or Ryan then for the first time since i was 18 I may just say duck it, this is not the will of the people at all,this will be the will of the elite

I know I've called you out on the sexist crap about Clinton before, but "billary" (lower case and all) is a new one for me.

Combination of Bill and Hillary Clinton. A lot of people do it with famous couples like that here, for some reason.

I understood what he was doing, and, to be fair on him, he'll be doing the same thing with all male rivals, right?

[mandalorian2298]

Trump will f*ck up everything he touches, just like he has in his own life. He will do the opposite of making America great again. If an anonymous group can help turn the tide, I have no issues with it. How is this any different than an endorsement from another politician or a celebrity, or the president?

It's very different. Anonymous is talking about bringing down his websites, etc. They're talking about destroying his ability to communicate with his fans, and besides the fact that it's illegal, it's also immoral.

The end does not justify the means. Bringing down Trump through dirty tricks -- whether it's Anonymous crashing his websites, Black Live Matter disrupting his rallies, or Mitt Romney buying off his delegates -- is a subversion of the democratic process. People who don't like Trump need to speak up and make a rational case against him. If the electorate chooses not to heed the voices of reason and elects him, so be it. They will get what they deserve. Self-appointed saviours cheating to prevent him from winning are enemies of fairness, due process, and democracy.

In all honesty, Trump's own rhetoric brought this on. He only has himself to blame for saying he would enact policies not dissimilar to that of Hitler back in 1930s Germany. I've actually been wondering if Anonymous would get involved. They've never taken kindly to such sentiments.

Trump may be an asshole. That is not in dispute.

If you subvert the democratic process to muzzle people whom you consider to be assholes, you are sowing the seeds of that democracy's destruction. The very concept of liberal democracy is underpinned by the idea that everyone has a right to their opinion, and everyone has a right to express their opinion in the political arena and bring it to the attention of the voters.

Lol, so racism, hate-mongering, habitual lying and a campaign based on courting people who are impressed by shouting but are unable to follow an argument longer then ten - WAKE UP! - words, much less to judge if the said argument is sound and/or consistant with the candidate's past statements and actions - all of this, as long as it is done by a presidential candidate, is not only to be considered morally acceptable, but also a sacred right of every douchebag because it is the part of democratic process?

Why? Is it because of the infalibility of democracy? Is it because voting has blessed 20th and 21st centuries with the endless parade of deeply moral, wise and competent leaders?

Be serious. Voting is a process based on...actually, Warren Ellis said it better then I ever could.

[jgordon1111]

Well, I went kasich, but now impossible for him to make it, brokered convention my ass, not sure about general election, Cruz better hit high gear, like most feel about trump, I feel about billary, anybody but.except in contested convention if they put up Romney or Ryan then for the first time since i was 18 I may just say duck it, this is not the will of the people at all,this will be the will of the elite

I know I've called you out on the sexist crap about Clinton before, but "billary" (lower case and all) is a new one for me.

Combination of Bill and Hillary Clinton. A lot of people do it with famous couples like that here, for some reason.

Yes muy, I do exactly that for several reasons,
First and foremost is when she first started her campaign she clearly stated that it was (her) campaign, yet as usual she lied like (bill) and rolled him out to directly campaign for her giving a direct perception that indeed (bill) is going back to (his) rightful white house.
Second the most detrimental trade agreement for this countries history was rolled out under her husbands watch.
Third while she was sec of state, illegal immigration thrived and safe cities grew.

So for me anyone but, trump or billary

[muy_thaiguy]

Well, I went kasich, but now impossible for him to make it, brokered convention my ass, not sure about general election, Cruz better hit high gear, like most feel about trump, I feel about billary, anybody but.except in contested convention if they put up Romney or Ryan then for the first time since i was 18 I may just say duck it, this is not the will of the people at all,this will be the will of the elite

I know I've called you out on the sexist crap about Clinton before, but "billary" (lower case and all) is a new one for me.

Combination of Bill and Hillary Clinton. A lot of people do it with famous couples like that here, for some reason.

Yes muy, I do exactly that for several reasons,
First and foremost is when she first started her campaign she clearly stated that it was (her) campaign, yet as usual she lied like (bill) and rolled him out to directly campaign for her giving a direct perception that indeed (bill) is going back to (his) rightful white house.
Second the most detrimental trade agreement for this countries history was rolled out under her husbands watch.
Third while she was sec of state, illegal immigration thrived and safe cities grew.

So for me anyone but, trump or billary

I meant combining the names of famous people. Because a lot of people do it with celebs in Hollywood. I just call that being lazy.

Though the Japanese do something similar with titles of pop groups, tv series, and what not, I give them a pass as those tend to be pretty long in Japanese.

[Symmetry]

Well, I went kasich, but now impossible for him to make it, brokered convention my ass, not sure about general election, Cruz better hit high gear, like most feel about trump, I feel about billary, anybody but.except in contested convention if they put up Romney or Ryan then for the first time since i was 18 I may just say duck it, this is not the will of the people at all,this will be the will of the elite

I know I've called you out on the sexist crap about Clinton before, but "billary" (lower case and all) is a new one for me.

Combination of Bill and Hillary Clinton. A lot of people do it with famous couples like that here, for some reason.

Yes muy, I do exactly that for several reasons,
First and foremost is when she first started her campaign she clearly stated that it was (her) campaign, yet as usual she lied like (bill) and rolled him out to directly campaign for her giving a direct perception that indeed (bill) is going back to (his) rightful white house.
Second the most detrimental trade agreement for this countries history was rolled out under her husbands watch.
Third while she was sec of state, illegal immigration thrived and safe cities grew.

So for me anyone but, trump or billary

So, if I get you right, you're pissed at her because of a trade agreement her husband made?

Are you judging any other candidates based on their spouses' decisions?

[TheProwler]

This is a good video about Hillary Clinton: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOYETKzLVeY

Regarding Trump, I like some of his ideas. If Mexicans are coming into America illegally, then build a wall that prevents it. That only makes sense to me. Why is it criticized?

And the whole "deport illegal aliens" thing does not sound racist or bigoted or wrong in any way to me. If people are in Canada illegally, I want them to be deported. That does not make me racist; it means that I want to share my country with those who are respectful of our laws and our way of life, and not those who do not respect our laws.

And Trump is correct about wanting to bring manufacturing back to the USA. It's actually pretty bad for the planet as a whole to be shipping products made in China (in non-environmentally friendly ways) all the way across the Pacific when the products could be made in USA (in much more environmentally friendly ways) and distributed nationally instead of globally. It makes me shake my head in disbelief when the people who act concerned about pollution do not seem to be concerned with the low environmental impact standards in China and the negative impact on the planet of shipping all those products across the ocean.


America is fucked up and Trump seems like the only candidate who actually has some decent ideas on how to fix it.

[Symmetry]

How much would it cost to deport all illegal immigrants?

http://www.businessinsider.com/deporting-all-of-americas-illegal-immigrants-would-cost-a-whopping-285-billion-2012-1?IR=T

About $285 billion dollars, and that's a 2012 estimate.

That people think that this is a feasible idea, or even a "decent" one, shows a detachment from reality common to many Trump supporters.

[TheProwler]

How much would it cost to deport all illegal immigrants?

http://www.businessinsider.com/deporting-all-of-americas-illegal-immigrants-would-cost-a-whopping-285-billion-2012-1?IR=T

About $285 billion dollars, and that's a 2012 estimate.

That people think that this is a feasible idea, or even a "decent" one, shows a detachment from reality common to many Trump supporters.

From that article: "That comes out to $18,310 per one apprehension."

I am pretty sure that the "cost of apprehension" could be significantly reduced. And that apprehension cost is the biggest part of the estimated $23480 total cost to deport an illegal immigrant.

So now, go ask the unemployed Americans who are sucking your welfare system dry if they would like to take the job that the illegal immigrant is working after he/she is shipped back to his/her country.

Deport that one illegal immigrant and it frees up a job for an American. And it gets that American off the welfare system. For years to come. I think that is well worth the one-time cost of deporting the illegal immigrant.

That article that you pointed to does not even consider the advantages of lowering the unemployment rate and lowering the cost of welfare. That type of short-sighted, simplistic thinking is part of the problem and it is too bad that the mass media uses it to mislead the American people.

[Dukasaur]

So now, go ask the unemployed Americans who are sucking your welfare system dry if they would like to take the job that the illegal immigrant is working after he/she is shipped back to his/her country..

No, actually they would not.

The reason those jobs are done by illegals in the first place is because the locals won't do that kind of work for that kind of money.

It's the same here in Canada. Every single tomato in the country is picked by Mexicans. You cannot get Canadians to work for the kind of money that the Mexicans are paid, and you can't get Canadians to do that kind of backbreaking labour at ANY price. Dawn to dusk, bent over with your nose almost at your knees, getting paid $6 a bushel. I'll bet you wouldn't last half a day. I know I wouldn't. I did it briefly when I was in high school, and that was enough for me to realize that I'd rather let the Mexicans have the job.

[TheProwler]

So now, go ask the unemployed Americans who are sucking your welfare system dry if they would like to take the job that the illegal immigrant is working after he/she is shipped back to his/her country..

No, actually they would not.

The reason those jobs are done by illegals in the first place is because the locals won't do that kind of work for that kind of money.

It's the same here in Canada. Every single tomato in the country is picked by Mexicans. You cannot get Canadians to work for the kind of money that the Mexicans are paid, and you can't get Canadians to do that kind of backbreaking labour at ANY price. Dawn to dusk, bent over with your nose almost at your knees, getting paid $6 a bushel. I'll bet you wouldn't last half a day. I know I wouldn't. I did it briefly when I was in high school, and that was enough for me to realize that I'd rather let the Mexicans have the job.

That might what you have been led to believe, but it is not true. When is the last time you visited a tomato farm in Ontario?

Also, you are referring to legal immigrant workers...or migrant workers. Not illegal immigrants. You are talking apples and oranges.

[Dukasaur]

So now, go ask the unemployed Americans who are sucking your welfare system dry if they would like to take the job that the illegal immigrant is working after he/she is shipped back to his/her country..

No, actually they would not.

The reason those jobs are done by illegals in the first place is because the locals won't do that kind of work for that kind of money.

It's the same here in Canada. Every single tomato in the country is picked by Mexicans. You cannot get Canadians to work for the kind of money that the Mexicans are paid, and you can't get Canadians to do that kind of backbreaking labour at ANY price. Dawn to dusk, bent over with your nose almost at your knees, getting paid $6 a bushel. I'll bet you wouldn't last half a day. I know I wouldn't. I did it briefly when I was in high school, and that was enough for me to realize that I'd rather let the Mexicans have the job.

That might what you have been led to believe, but it is not true. When is the last time you visited a tomato farm in Ontario?

Also, you are referring to legal immigrant workers...or migrant workers. Not illegal immigrants. You are talking apples and oranges.

Around here, the Mexicans are legal. They're imported with the full blessing of Agriculture Canada because the farmers simply cannot find anyone locally to do this kind of backbreaking work at a price they can afford to pay. In the U.S. they're mostly illegal, but that makes no difference. The economic rationale for imported labour is always the same -- there are shit jobs that the locals won't do, and people from countries with a lower standard of living are desperate enough to come and do them.

To be honest I haven't been to a tomato farm in forty years or more. My one experience in high school was enough to scare me away from those forever. However, I have been to other kinds of farms. I've been a truck driver for much of my life and many of my jobs involve agricultural products of one kind or another.

In one of my jobs I used to haul bare-root saplings from nurseries in Ontario to nurseries in Quebec. I could always tell the difference between a farm that used Mexicans and a farm that used white folk. If I'd come to a farm with Mexicans, they'd have the trailer stripped clean and back on the road in 90 minutes. If I came to a farm with white labour, the same trailer would take five or six hours to unload, with everybody having plenty of smoke breaks, coffee breaks, and bathroom breaks. The Mexicans wouldn't smoke, drink coffee, or go to the bathroom until the job is done. The whites seemed to all have bladder infections, there was someone off to the bathroom every ten minutes, and in between they'd be telling jokes and checking their iphones and everything but work.

I have a lot of respect for the Mexicans. Without them, food would be a luxury only the ultra-rich could afford.

[patches70]

I have a lot of respect for the Mexicans. Without them, food would be a luxury only the ultra-rich could afford.

Or, you know, you could just grow your own food. It's not hard to grow a few tomato plants and any other vegetables you'd like. If you wanna mass produce that's a different story, but there isn't any reason anyone can't grow a little bit of their own food virtually anywhere. Even indoors.

And some vegetables are easier to grow than others. Asparagus for instance, grows like a freaking weed and it comes back every year all on it's own. Start just a little bit of the stuff one season and in a season or two you'll have so much you won't know what to do with it all. In fact, growing some asparagus with your tomatoes helps both plants and makes them both even easier to cultivate. The asparagus protects the tomatoes and the tomatoes protect the asparagus.

Laziness is the only reason why people don't grow their own veggies.

[jgordon1111]

I have a lot of respect for the Mexicans. Without them, food would be a luxury only the ultra-rich could afford.

Or, you know, you could just grow your own food. It's not hard to grow a few tomato plants and any other vegetables you'd like. If you wanna mass produce that's a different story, but there isn't any reason anyone can't grow a little bit of their own food virtually anywhere. Even indoors.

And some vegetables are easier to grow than others. Asparagus for instance, grows like a freaking weed and it comes back every year all on it's own. Start just a little bit of the stuff one season and in a season or two you'll have so much you won't know what to do with it all. In fact, growing some asparagus with your tomatoes helps both plants and makes them both even easier to cultivate. The asparagus protects the tomatoes and the tomatoes protect the asparagus.

Laziness is the only reason why people don't grow their own veggies.

That and knowhow combined with the amount of time it would take out of busy schedules of the millinials, how dare you suggest that they take this valuable time away from Netflix, video games,partying or even growing their dope to do something so menial as growing FOOD, you ask to much of them, and that is blasphemy to their religion of me me, be careful their are some of their sycophants even here watching for just this type of blasphemy, it would be easy to point them out, but as always they will reveal themselves. They can't help it.

[Dukasaur]

I have a lot of respect for the Mexicans. Without them, food would be a luxury only the ultra-rich could afford.

Or, you know, you could just grow your own food. It's not hard to grow a few tomato plants and any other vegetables you'd like. If you wanna mass produce that's a different story, but there isn't any reason anyone can't grow a little bit of their own food virtually anywhere. Even indoors.

And some vegetables are easier to grow than others. Asparagus for instance, grows like a freaking weed and it comes back every year all on it's own. Start just a little bit of the stuff one season and in a season or two you'll have so much you won't know what to do with it all. In fact, growing some asparagus with your tomatoes helps both plants and makes them both even easier to cultivate. The asparagus protects the tomatoes and the tomatoes protect the asparagus.

Laziness is the only reason why people don't grow their own veggies.

There's this thing called division of labour. They teach you about it in first-year macroeconomics. You can rise with the sun, grow your own food, weave your own cloth, cut your own firewood, etc., etc. Or you can specialize in doing one thing really well, exchange your services for currency, and swap that currency for things that others have made cheaply by specializing in what they do really well.

Both strategies do work, I'll grant you that. Just the second strategy works a little better.

[Symmetry]

I have a lot of respect for the Mexicans. Without them, food would be a luxury only the ultra-rich could afford.

Or, you know, you could just grow your own food. It's not hard to grow a few tomato plants and any other vegetables you'd like. If you wanna mass produce that's a different story, but there isn't any reason anyone can't grow a little bit of their own food virtually anywhere. Even indoors.

And some vegetables are easier to grow than others. Asparagus for instance, grows like a freaking weed and it comes back every year all on it's own. Start just a little bit of the stuff one season and in a season or two you'll have so much you won't know what to do with it all. In fact, growing some asparagus with your tomatoes helps both plants and makes them both even easier to cultivate. The asparagus protects the tomatoes and the tomatoes protect the asparagus.

Laziness is the only reason why people don't grow their own veggies.

I've not tried asparagus, but I only have a small planting apace. It's just tomatoes, basic herbs, and chillis at the moment. I'm thinking peas next, but that's more for ease than anything else.

[patches70]

There's this thing called division of labour. They teach you about it in first-year macroeconomics. You can rise with the sun, grow your own food, weave your own cloth, cut your own firewood, etc., etc. Or you can specialize in doing one thing really well, exchange your services for currency, and swap that currency for things that others have made cheaply by specializing in what they do really well.

Both strategies do work, I'll grant you that. Just the second strategy works a little better.

The point is Duka, is if you really want to have fresh vegetables then you would devote a portion of your time growing some in the case of Mexicans not able to provide cheap labor to pick tomatoes at indentured servant wages. You justified the use of migrants to pick the produce because otherwise no one would be able to afford vegetables. I'm simply saying that in such a scenario vegetables would still be cheap because it would make economic sense for a person to set aside some of their time to plant their own vegetables thereby getting around the whole "it's too expensive because we ain't got illegal immigrants picking our foodz". It's a false argument because people would simply spend what amounts to a few minutes a day growing small plots to provide themselves and their immediate family the veggies they desire.
The argument that we need illegals to pick our food or else we'll starve or go broke is bullshit. People would rather play their video games, maybe post on interwebz forums or any other number of hobbies and time killers instead of just growing some tomatoes, cucumbers, carrots, potatoes or whatever they want themselves.

Minutes a day is all it takes.

[patches70]

I've not tried asparagus, but I only have a small planting apace. It's just tomatoes, basic herbs, and chillis at the moment. I'm thinking peas next, but that's more for ease than anything else.

Asparagus is just an example, but it's a perennial, it'll just keep coming back every year unless you uproot them. Once they start producing you'd soon find yourself with no possible way to eat them all. Year after year.
And it's not hard is it sym? How much time do you have to devote to provide yourself with some tomatoes, herbs and chillis? Do you think you'll have to devote any significant amount of time growing peas next?
Do you ever have surplus tomatoes or herbs in which you give away to your neighbors, family or friends?

We don't ever buy tomatoes from the store. We put a couple in the ground right under an air condition unit and we don't ever even have to water the plants, the AC does it for us. We get so many tomatoes we can't eat 'em all and that's just two plants. Our tomatoes are better than any we could buy at the grocery store, that's for sure.

[Symmetry]

I've not tried asparagus, but I only have a small planting apace. It's just tomatoes, basic herbs, and chillis at the moment. I'm thinking peas next, but that's more for ease than anything else.

Asparagus is just an example, but it's a perennial, it'll just keep coming back every year unless you uproot them. Once they start producing you'd soon find yourself with no possible way to eat them all. Year after year.
And it's not hard is it sym? How much time do you have to devote to provide yourself with some tomatoes, herbs and chillis? Do you think you'll have to devote any significant amount of time growing peas next?
Do you ever have surplus tomatoes or herbs in which you give away to your neighbors, family or friends?

We don't ever buy tomatoes from the store. We put a couple in the ground right under an air condition unit and we don't ever even have to water the plants, the AC does it for us. We get so many tomatoes we can't eat 'em all and that's just two plants. Our tomatoes are better than any we could buy at the grocery store, that's for sure.

I have plenty of herbs, although my basil keeps dying. I tend to use all of my toms and chillies, so there's not much left. Homegrown is definitely better.

[riskllama]

tomatoes are good.

[Dukasaur]

There's this thing called division of labour. They teach you about it in first-year macroeconomics. You can rise with the sun, grow your own food, weave your own cloth, cut your own firewood, etc., etc. Or you can specialize in doing one thing really well, exchange your services for currency, and swap that currency for things that others have made cheaply by specializing in what they do really well.

Both strategies do work, I'll grant you that. Just the second strategy works a little better.

The point is Duka, is if you really want to have fresh vegetables then you would devote a portion of your time growing some in the case of Mexicans not able to provide cheap labor to pick tomatoes at indentured servant wages. You justified the use of migrants to pick the produce because otherwise no one would be able to afford vegetables. I'm simply saying that in such a scenario vegetables would still be cheap because it would make economic sense for a person to set aside some of their time to plant their own vegetables thereby getting around the whole "it's too expensive because we ain't got illegal immigrants picking our foodz". It's a false argument because people would simply spend what amounts to a few minutes a day growing small plots to provide themselves and their immediate family the veggies they desire.
The argument that we need illegals to pick our food or else we'll starve or go broke is bullshit. People would rather play their video games, maybe post on interwebz forums or any other number of hobbies and time killers instead of just growing some tomatoes, cucumbers, carrots, potatoes or whatever they want themselves.

Minutes a day is all it takes.

All true, and I'm not opposed to people growing food.

However, the majority of people would prefer their food from the supermarket, and as long as that's true, I think you should get the hell out of the way and let the farmers hire whomever they want. And along the way, show a little respect for people who do hard work that most of us don't want to.

[Symmetry]

There's this thing called division of labour. They teach you about it in first-year macroeconomics. You can rise with the sun, grow your own food, weave your own cloth, cut your own firewood, etc., etc. Or you can specialize in doing one thing really well, exchange your services for currency, and swap that currency for things that others have made cheaply by specializing in what they do really well.

Both strategies do work, I'll grant you that. Just the second strategy works a little better.

The point is Duka, is if you really want to have fresh vegetables then you would devote a portion of your time growing some in the case of Mexicans not able to provide cheap labor to pick tomatoes at indentured servant wages. You justified the use of migrants to pick the produce because otherwise no one would be able to afford vegetables. I'm simply saying that in such a scenario vegetables would still be cheap because it would make economic sense for a person to set aside some of their time to plant their own vegetables thereby getting around the whole "it's too expensive because we ain't got illegal immigrants picking our foodz". It's a false argument because people would simply spend what amounts to a few minutes a day growing small plots to provide themselves and their immediate family the veggies they desire.
The argument that we need illegals to pick our food or else we'll starve or go broke is bullshit. People would rather play their video games, maybe post on interwebz forums or any other number of hobbies and time killers instead of just growing some tomatoes, cucumbers, carrots, potatoes or whatever they want themselves.

Minutes a day is all it takes.

All true, and I'm not opposed to people growing food.

However, the majority of people would prefer their food from the supermarket, and as long as that's true, I think you should get the hell out of the way and let the farmers hire whomever they want. And along the way, show a little respect for people who do hard work that most of us don't want to.

As an aside, have you ever tried growing your own veg?

[jgordon1111]

There's this thing called division of labour. They teach you about it in first-year macroeconomics. You can rise with the sun, grow your own food, weave your own cloth, cut your own firewood, etc., etc. Or you can specialize in doing one thing really well, exchange your services for currency, and swap that currency for things that others have made cheaply by specializing in what they do really well.

Both strategies do work, I'll grant you that. Just the second strategy works a little better.

The point is Duka, is if you really want to have fresh vegetables then you would devote a portion of your time growing some in the case of Mexicans not able to provide cheap labor to pick tomatoes at indentured servant wages. You justified the use of migrants to pick the produce because otherwise no one would be able to afford vegetables. I'm simply saying that in such a scenario vegetables would still be cheap because it would make economic sense for a person to set aside some of their time to plant their own vegetables thereby getting around the whole "it's too expensive because we ain't got illegal immigrants picking our foodz". It's a false argument because people would simply spend what amounts to a few minutes a day growing small plots to provide themselves and their immediate family the veggies they desire.
The argument that we need illegals to pick our food or else we'll starve or go broke is bullshit. People would rather play their video games, maybe post on interwebz forums or any other number of hobbies and time killers instead of just growing some tomatoes, cucumbers, carrots, potatoes or whatever they want themselves.

Minutes a day is all it takes.

All true, and I'm not opposed to people growing food.

However, the majority of people would prefer their food from the supermarket, and as long as that's true, I think you should get the hell out of the way and let the farmers hire whomever they want. And along the way, show a little respect for people who do hard work that most of us don't want to.

Duk I have nothing against migrant workers, they just want to live and feed their families
What I am against is a generation of self absorbed me mes that have no desire to figure out how to survive the possibility if migrants can't or won't help take care of them they are screwed, if computers and internet failed who is going to help them, I can guarantee You big brother ain't, unless they needed slaves to fight, build, or clean for them, think about it, isn't that sort of the current world status quo already, just they don't use the word slave, they say LABOR FORCE ,and they won't say either if shit goes south the words will be FORCED LABOR or umm err LABOR, and to survive everyone will pretend they are doing it for the good of all, sound about right

[Symmetry]

There's this thing called division of labour. They teach you about it in first-year macroeconomics. You can rise with the sun, grow your own food, weave your own cloth, cut your own firewood, etc., etc. Or you can specialize in doing one thing really well, exchange your services for currency, and swap that currency for things that others have made cheaply by specializing in what they do really well.

Both strategies do work, I'll grant you that. Just the second strategy works a little better.

The point is Duka, is if you really want to have fresh vegetables then you would devote a portion of your time growing some in the case of Mexicans not able to provide cheap labor to pick tomatoes at indentured servant wages. You justified the use of migrants to pick the produce because otherwise no one would be able to afford vegetables. I'm simply saying that in such a scenario vegetables would still be cheap because it would make economic sense for a person to set aside some of their time to plant their own vegetables thereby getting around the whole "it's too expensive because we ain't got illegal immigrants picking our foodz". It's a false argument because people would simply spend what amounts to a few minutes a day growing small plots to provide themselves and their immediate family the veggies they desire.
The argument that we need illegals to pick our food or else we'll starve or go broke is bullshit. People would rather play their video games, maybe post on interwebz forums or any other number of hobbies and time killers instead of just growing some tomatoes, cucumbers, carrots, potatoes or whatever they want themselves.

Minutes a day is all it takes.

All true, and I'm not opposed to people growing food.

However, the majority of people would prefer their food from the supermarket, and as long as that's true, I think you should get the hell out of the way and let the farmers hire whomever they want. And along the way, show a little respect for people who do hard work that most of us don't want to.

Duk I have nothing against migrant workers, they just want to live and feed their families
What I am against is a generation of self absorbed me mes that have no desire to figure out how to survive the possibility if migrants can't or won't help take care of them they are screwed, if computers and internet failed who is going to help them, I can guarantee You big brother ain't, unless they needed slaves to fight, build, or clean for them, think about it, isn't that sort of the current world status quo already, just they don't use the word slave, they say LABOR FORCE ,and they won't say either if shit goes south the words will be FORCED LABOR or umm err LABOR, and to survive everyone will pretend they are doing it for the good of all, sound about right

But Gordo- surely there must be a blonde (ish) blue-eyed ubermensch who can save us?

[jgordon1111]

Jajaja, du bist verukt,der mensch drumpf is mox nix vor meir

[Dukasaur]

As an aside, have you ever tried growing your own veg?

Yes.