America revels in its role as cancer of the world

[HitRed]

[Dukasaur]

Tariffs are not in a box though. Mexico might start making something we imported from China. Or a Chinese company might move to Vietnam. The world is in flux.

You are talking nonsense... If there were price competitive products in Mexico or Vietnam, without any doubt in my mind I can claim that US would have bought them, but there are no such. And why would US care if something is made in Maxico, Vietnam or China?
With all these tariff wars only one thing might change for US... Moving factories from China to US, but that wont happen, not in this life. So US citizens will pay more for the same products, their purchasing power will be affected and eventually that will lead to another crisis like we had in 2008. And again US citizens will suffer, along with the whole world I presume(you, me, and most of the users in this forum will be affected as well). By the time all this settles 20 years will pass and nothing will change.
So unless you are a cat and you have 8 more lives for living, use your brain and think logically what the outcome of all this will be.

Somebody is anxious about the future.

When the South cut off cotton exports the world turned to Egypt. Change happens.

Change happens, of course. But what kind of change are you looking for?

Someone once said, "when good don't cross borders, armies do." Free trade leads to peace and prosperity. Embargoes and tariff walls lead to poverty and war. During the second half of the 20th century, we had a world constantly moving toward eliminating trade barriers, with a result that poverty was in retreat everywhere on earth, and wars got steadily less intense. Now nationalism is rearing its ugly head again, and if it succeeds then the inevitable result will be more poverty in the world and more wars.

[Dukasaur]

You’re all correct about lifestyle and cheap goods.

The problem is it’s not sustainable and puts your country at risk I’m other ways.

I’m not saying it’ll be easy, quick, or even possible... but I truly feel we gotta take our industrial base back.

Why?

It's a serious question. If your needs are being met, why do you feel you need to meet them yourself?

The arguments for and against specialization of labour are the same whether you're talking individuals or nations. At some point we all have the romantic notion that it would be great to be self-sufficient, to grow our own food, build our own house, sew our own clothes, etc. It only takes a few experiments along these lines for most of us to realize that it's best to just specialize at what we do best and trade with others for what they do best.

Sure, I could grow my own onions. I know how. But it would probably take me 50 hours of back-breaking labour for me to break up the soil out back, plant the onions, water them and patrol them for pests all summer, and harvest them in the fall. In the same 50 hours at my regular job, I can make enough money to buy about 3500 pounds of onions at the grocery store. What's more, instead of one harvest at one narrow time interval, thanks to the integrated world economy I can have fresh onions any day of the year, come rain or shine, come flood or drought.

So it goes with nations. Self-sufficiency is a romantic notion, but there's no reason to attempt it other than the sheer romanticism. It's vastly more efficient (or profitable, if you prefer) to specialize in those things you're good at and trade for the rest.

If you've got a nice, comfortable job in an air-conditioned office writing stockholder reports or whatever it is you do, why do you crave working in some dirty, smelly factory? Or perhaps you don't crave it for yourself, but for others? It's pretty elitist to think that dirty hard work is good for your neighbour ever though you wouldn't want it yourself.

But even if it is, what makes you think your neighbour will get the job? Industries that have fled for cheap labour in the Third World will come back eventually, but they will come back in completely automated form. Robot labour is even cheaper (in the long run) than Third World labour. The initial costs are very high, but American business is awash in cash. It can afford to invest in the high up-front costs of robots, knowing that in the long run that money will be recouped. Still won't get your neighbour a job, unless he's in robotic design.

[armati]

"Still won't get your neighbour a job, unless he's in robotic design."

Those jobs pass too when AI designs the next generation of itself.
Huge demand for coders right now, but that goes away when AI starts coding.

Robotics and AI is a huge threat to humanity, the real challenge will come when AI realizes humans are not required and could actually be a detriment to the planet.

We will need it tho for evolving into the borg or cylon.

[jimboston]

You’re all correct about lifestyle and cheap goods.

The problem is it’s not sustainable and puts your country at risk I’m other ways.

I’m not saying it’ll be easy, quick, or even possible... but I truly feel we gotta take our industrial base back.

Why?

It's a serious question. If your needs are being met, why do you feel you need to meet them yourself?
[quote]

National Security

That’s really the reason I believe this.

I don’t just mean physical security, but also economic security.

When you have no Industrial Base you have limited means of defense. When your economy is tied to rival nations as tightly as ours is woven with the Chinese you have limited your economic and political options when dealing with crisis.

Granted, you are also limiting the options of your rivals, and you can make a claim that by tying these economies together you are essentially making war impossible because neither country can ‘afford’ it. So I know there are counter arguments.

I’m not opposed to trade, but I think we (the USA) as a nation has let things go ‘too far’ and we need to scale back.... I feel we’ve let a situation develop where we are in some ways ‘at the mercy’ of the Chinese.

That said... this is all predicated on a believe that “Nations”, as they existed in the 19th and 20th centuries, will continue to exist. It’s possible that as this century develops and we move into the 21st or 22nd centuries that the idea of completely independent nations will cease to exist and we will grow to be more ‘one people’. I can see that maybe happening, I hope it happens, but I can see other scenarios playing out as well.

[Symmetry]

We (the US) does need to reduce trade and start making goods here... this will be painful to Americans, and you’re right in questioning our ability to handle it, and our political will over the long term. I don’t know enough to say that the way Trump is going about it is the best way... if I was a betting man I’d say it wasn’t. I’m hoping it’s a wake up call and we recognize that we can’t outsource everything.

Why?

I used to be a big fan of Micheal Emerling, and one of the things he used to say a lot was, "I love the fact that we have a trade deficit with Japan. It means we send them these worthless pieces of paper, and they send us useful things like TVs and microwaves!"

To make the gadgets you love at prices you can afford, it takes Third-World wages. There's no way you could have the booming economy you do if you were trying to pay people G7 wages to make things. Your first-world lifestyle is completely dependent on outsourcing.

Sorry Duk, Japan isn't a third world country. No idea who your fan-boy is either.

You're missing the point completely. The point is that people lose a lot of sleep about a trade deficit, when it's really a non-issue. We have trade deficits with countries because they send us useful things and we send them useless fiat currency. It's a big win for us.

If he was making that speech nowadays, he'd have to say Malaysia or something, but back in the 70s and 80s there was still a huge trade deficit with Japan.

Apologies Duk, I only replied to the points you made. What are your points to be discussed recently?

[riskllama]

[armati]

".....it takes Third-World wages. There's no way you could have the booming economy you do if you were trying to pay people G7 wages to make things. Your first-world lifestyle is completely dependent on outsourcing."

I dont believe thats true, Ford paid enuff so his employees could afford his cars.
N.America boomed with good wages for decades.
(course we stole alot from other nations)

"...we send them these worthless pieces of paper, and they send us useful things like TVs..."
That is 100% true.

The world is waking up tho, the american dollar is backed by nothing but war and the nations are getting tired of paying for americans dropping bombs on them.
The world is slowly dropping the american dollar, a change in world reserve currency takes some time tho.

Manufacturing should go back to the states as the american dollar loses purchasing power, thing is it will most likely be operated by robots and AI.

[mrswdk]

So incredibly desperate. Realizing that America's telecommunications companies are literally incapable of competing with Chinese ones when operating on a level playing field, Trump has given up any pretense that he is anything other than a dummy protectionist and today announced that he plans to begin forcing American companies not to trade with Huawei on the Breitbart-esque grounds that Huawei is a Red Under The Bed intent on destroying American society.

After his cack-handed protectionism tanked the shares of America's biggest chip manufacturers, who rely on Huawei's business to keep them in the black, and it emerged that Huawei has been stockpiling chips for months to mitigate against exactly this risk and therefore doesn't even care, the world is now scrambling to work out which is greater: America's rabid aggression, or its spectacular incompetence?

[GoranZ]

So incredibly desperate. Realizing that America's telecommunications companies are literally incapable of competing with Chinese ones when operating on a level playing field, Trump has given up any pretense that he is anything other than a dummy protectionist and today announced that he plans to begin forcing American companies not to trade with Huawei on the Breitbart-esque grounds that Huawei is a Red Under The Bed intent on destroying American society.

After his cack-handed protectionism tanked the shares of America's biggest chip manufacturers, who rely on Huawei's business to keep them in the black, and it emerged that Huawei has been stockpiling chips for months to mitigate against exactly this risk and therefore doesn't even care, the world is now scrambling to work out which is greater: America's rabid aggression, or its spectacular incompetence?

I guess Apple and dozen other US companies can close their shops in China. Chinese people will see this as attack towards them individually(personally I would have acted the same).
Chinese media calls for 'people's war' as US trade war heats up

[mrswdk]

Given how the US is totally dependent on Chinese rare earths to build not just all those computer chips but also a lot of core components in its weapons and military vehicles, perhaps China's response should be to ban all rare earth exports to America. America has self-identified itself as a foe of China, so it seems totally fair for China cease propping up America's military and telecommunications giants on the grounds of national security.

[armati]

mrswdk

I thought of that too, just stop selling the rare earths, why support the mic anyway?
Or, China could sell them at a price that covers the cost of all tariffs, its not like the yanks would stop building bombs.
China can also dump their american treasuries, Russians have already gotten rid of most of theirs.

Thing is whats going on is an enigma inside a mystery wrapped in a riddle (something like that).

The Chinese still continue to hoard gold, they want the price low so as to buy as much as they can, they sell their treasuries and stop selling rare earths and the price of gold skyrockets.

Course if the chinese were to sell treasuries and stop selling rare earths the dollar would collapse and it would probably mean war.

Interesting to see what happens next.

[DoomYoshi]

Chinese people: actually spread like cancer
https://vancouversun.com/news/local-new ... h-tourists

Absolutely disgusting.

[GoranZ]

Chinese people: actually spread like cancer
https://vancouversun.com/news/local-new ... h-tourists

Absolutely disgusting.

How your family ended up in Canada? Care to share your own family story?

[NomadPatriot]

these have got to be the stupidest poll options I have ever seen..
let's break them down:

Invade Venezuela - why would we invade Venezuela.. that would just create more refugees..

Sanctions on the European Union- the EU placed Economic Sanctions on Venezuela back in 2017.. so who should we be blaming for Venezuela's demise... ??
'European Union foreign ministers approved economic sanctions, including an arms embargo'
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-eu-idUSKBN1DD0UN


Bomb Iran - well there is always this .. ... --> 'A top Iranian official has admitted for the first time that Iran knowingly helped al-Qaeda terrorists — including some of the 9/11 attackers — travel secretly through the Middle East.'
https://nypost.com/2018/06/09/iran-admits-it-protected-al-qaeda-terrorists-before-9-11/

Attack Chinese ships - yeah .. it's the US who is wanting to attack.. --> 'Chinese senior military official calls for attacks on US ships in South China Sea'
https://americanmilitarynews.com/2018/12/chinese-senior-military-official-calls-for-attacks-on-us-ships-in-south-china-sea/

Drone strikes on Rwandan orphanages - which president ignored the Rwanda Genocide...? oh yeah.. it was the Democrat Bill Clinton..
but here is another US President & the Rwanda President..


Reintroduction of slavery - yeah let's accuse the US of wanting Modern Day Slavery..
'revalence of modern slavery, as a percentage of the population, by country. These estimates are from the Walk Free Foundation. Estimates by sources with broader definitions of slavery can be higher.'

[armati]

The slavery map is interesting, it doesnt define what they consider slavery tho.
Is prison labor considered slavery? or sex slavery? how about debt slavery?

If debt slavery were to count the % in the west would be far higher than 0%.
How about imported slave made products, is that slavery inside the consuming nation or just the transporters and manufactures?

I guess the question should be does supporting slavery count as slavery?

Maybe its just open air or backroom slave markets, the actual selling of a person that counts.

It just needs some definition.

[NomadPatriot]

If debt slavery were to count the % in the west would be far higher than 0%.

the lowest bracket color is 0.0% - 0.05% of that countries population.. so no country was deemed 100% free of the definition of modern slavery.. unless that is what the gray countries represent..
so at the highest the united states was determined to have at minimum none.. at most 150,000 "Modern Day Slaves.. considering .05% of 300,000,000 is 150,000....

I can only guesstimate in the US it would include illegal immigrant forced labor, known sex trafficking incidents, possible prison labor since a few states do not pay the prisoners for working... but according to the data gathered by the Walk Free Foundation, the West is basically 'Modern Day Slave" Free compared to the rest of the world..

[armati]

NomadPatriot

Bomb Iran - well there is always this .. ... --> 'A top Iranian official has admitted for the first time that Iran knowingly helped al-Qaeda terrorists — including some of the 9/11 attackers — travel secretly through the Middle East.'
https://nypost.com/2018/06/09/iran-admi ... fore-9-11/

Im gonna call bullsh#t on this story, it says they protected one of the pilots that flew a plane into a tower.

Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth
https://www.ae911truth.org/

The info is in there somewhere if ya wanna take the time to find it.

I dont believe a person that takes a few cessna lessons would acquire the skill to pull off the maneuvers those jets did, much less be able to simply fly one.
Aside from everything else, capture the craft using a box cutter (like ex military types would give up their plane because a guy has a box cutter,gimeabraek) evading all security blah blah blah

Therefore I call bullsh#t.

[armati]

Another couple things that show that article to be BS.

It was a Saudi plane that was allowed to fly after all N America got grounded, the dancing guys that were there to record the event were...you guessed it,...Israeli.
They are known as the 5 dancing Israelis.

That article would suggest that Iran Saudi and Israel were working together.....not likely.

[NomadPatriot]

Im gonna call bullsh#t on this story, it says they protected one of the pilots that flew a plane into a tower.

the article says Iran admitted they had protected the guy in the months before 9/11... it was just one of the first search links that popped up.. I am sure there is a rabbit hole to dive into out there..

not sure if iran knew he was going to do what he did.. but that is what they admitted.. they hide the terrorists location from the international society...
if you believe the CIA had something to do with it.. you do have to consider Al Qaeda were well trained CIA agents & the Deep State had Agents in all of those countries.. .. who most likely knew how to fly & coordinated..

the cover stories are ridiculous I agree.. I watched tower 2 fall live on tv.. the cold chill is something I will never forget.. nor should I..

as far as the slavery thing.. it's just odd that the OP - mrswdk - would suggest the United States would want to 'Reinstitute Slavery'.. when he lists Niger as his location on his profile & Niger is among the mid-range worst offenders of modern slavery..

[armati]

I doubt if the op was being serious.

About the Iran supporting terrorist article.
Most likely not Iran saying that.

Iran has a huge issue with drugs coming from those people, they fight them and have been fighting them at every opportunity.

Far more likely that article was posted by somebody from the west.

Recall the Isreali plan of expansion,
standard procedure is to demonize the nation your going to invade before they do.
Remember Hussein was murdering babies?
Was it Gaddafi that was giving his troops viagra for more rapes?

All that crap is BS. Its just what we do.

The "terrorists" Iran support are the groups that oppose Israel, we call them terrorists because we are ruled by Israel and Iran is on the list for invasion.

In reality, look what we do to the Palistinians and so many others, its us thats the terrorist.
Remember Hillory and Albright responding to killing 500 thousand children...."Its worth it", thats terror.

I hope a war doesnt happen with Iran, that could be far more than the psychopaths bargain for.

As for being cia trained, yupper and isis too, trained,supplied and paid.
Notice Israel never gets attacked by them?

[DoomYoshi]

Chinese people: actually spread like cancer
https://vancouversun.com/news/local-new ... h-tourists

Absolutely disgusting.

How your family ended up in Canada? Care to share your own family story?

Sure. It's a simple story based on one simple principle. We did everything in our power possible to get as far away from Russia as possible.

[riskllama]

Chinese people: actually spread like cancer
https://vancouversun.com/news/local-new ... h-tourists

Absolutely disgusting.

How your family ended up in Canada? Care to share your own family story?

Sure. It's a simple story based on one simple principle. We did everything in our power possible to get as far away from Russia as possible.

that couldn't have been telegraphed any better, DY - nice work. perhaps you could link duk's post where he shared what the actual events of the saga were for us? i wouldn't mind reading it again...

[NomadPatriot]

About the Iran supporting terrorist article.Most likely not Iran saying that.Iran has a huge issue with drugs coming from those people, they fight them and have been fighting them at every opportunity.Far more likely that article was posted by somebody from the west.

( this took some digging...)
The Saudi Gazette
Iran facilitated 9/11 attacks: Larijani

[DoomYoshi]

Chinese people: actually spread like cancer
https://vancouversun.com/news/local-new ... h-tourists

Absolutely disgusting.

How your family ended up in Canada? Care to share your own family story?

Sure. It's a simple story based on one simple principle. We did everything in our power possible to get as far away from Russia as possible.

that couldn't have been telegraphed any better, DY - nice work. perhaps you could link duk's post where he shared what the actual events of the saga were for us? i wouldn't mind reading it again...

I'm not familiar with the post you mean.