ViperOverLord wrote:
It's so hard to argue opinions when you guys can't even properly comprehend my arguments and consequently argue like botards.
We don't agree with you, so we are the ones who don't understand? Ironically, while issuing that statement, you make it clear you don't get most of my position
at all.
ViperOverLord wrote:
1. I never claimed that morality is science.
2. Psychiatry 101 - Although they try to apply the science of logic, psychiatry is considered to subjective to be a science. The distinction of being a social science does not mean it is a (true) science. As such, various schools of thoughts exist.......PSYCHIATRY IS NOT A SCIENCE. (Open mouth, insert foot. Have you even ever taken a psychology course?)
3. Your argument that there may or may not be biological proof of homosexuality; that it somehow defies Christianity. is a fallacy. Christians believe that man is flawed and should put their faith in God. As such a Christian counselor should not be required to deny her faith, especially for a subjective matter such as this.
4. I think it's sad that you insist on viewing Christians as Bible thumping nit wits. Christians are the ones being attacked here. It is not the other way around. Would you call a Muslim a Koran thumping nit wit because they want their women to keep their faces covered?
5. "Similarly, whether homosexuality is or is not acceptable to Christianity or worship of the all might frog prince is utterly irrelevant. What matters is if this is harmful to society or to the person," - Yes and Christians believe that personal accountability transfers itself to a successful society. Why would you presume to think this is merely a witch hunt and all over a matter of a person having personal beliefs. This speaks to your own narrow mindedness.
6. "ALL of those arguments --that homosexuals are more likely to be pedophiles, that homosexuals are just generally not able to follow societies other rules" - Way to just throw anything you can into the argument. Nobody is arguing this argument based on such concepts but you have no problem confusing the issue.
7. "If you live next to a doctor of medicine, you need to treat them. If you become a psycologist in standard practice, then you need to also agree to treat anyone." - Yes and I'd like my counselor to have a sense of morality or I certainly would not expect them to be able to treat me. Certainly we all have our own interperetations of morality and as such we should find a counselor that evokes our individual senses of propriety. But it is not an institution's responsibility to define morality (morality not to be confused with ethics).
8. You ended with further jibberish about insane asylums and witch hunts that does not translate to the argument or even apply to my original point. Again, please read and comprehend and respond correctly.
You mostly don't even address what I actually said, so I will simplify this.
First, stop this "you are just anti-Christian" garbage. I AM a Christian, I do believe in the Bible and am not at all comfortable saying that homosexuality is OK. The point is that our personnal beliefs and morals are
irrelevant.
Second, while psychiatry is not as firm/set as many other fields of science, it is very much based upon scientific principles. Furthermore, it is a field of medicine, even if psychiatrists are not doctors. Psycologists
are medical doctors, and very much scientists.
No one is stopping this lady from being a
Christian counselor. The program that she enrolled in, though, is not a Christian counseling program. It is a general psychiatric program, designed to teach people to deal with everyone. Does she have the right to set up shop and counsel homosexuals to convert to Christianity (or to look to their faith to solve this issue), yes? Yes! Whether she can call herself a psychiatrist, as opposed to a Christian Counselor, varies by state. She absolutely could NOT get a job with a secular school, camp, etc, etc, etc. unless she were willing to back off from here stance on homosexuality. This is because the Christian view of homosexuality, as is the view of other religions and creeds, is just plain irrelevant. The point is that homosexuality is not an illness, is not considered psycologically abherrant in the clinical sense. Attempting to change someone's sexuality, unless the person specifically seeks out that type of counseling is just wrong.
Yes, the comparison to religion is valid. Let's say that my son decides to convert to Islam (or become a Hari Krishna, etc.) I don't like that. What rights to I have in trying to change his views? Well, if my son is a child, maybe 11 or so, then most psychologists and pschiatrists will deal with this basically like a rebellion. That is, they will (essentially) say something along the lines of "are you sure this is really what you believe or are you just trying to get under your parent's skin". Most kids don't really have a full and complete grasp of their religion until about 12-13 (one reason why that is the typical age of becoming an "adult" within most religions). Some would argue they don't truly understand religion until later, but for this debate the exact age is roughly irrelevant (and varies by child anyway). So, basically, as long as the child is too young to really and truly understand the choice, it is perfectly reasonable for the psychiatrist or psycologist to say something like "do what your parents want now and when you get older you can do as you like". (though I highly doubt they would be that direct
).
However, let's say that my son is not 11, but is 16. What then? At that point, the child is still not a legal adult. In most states a parent can take that child to a psychiatrist. Let's say I do that and ask the psychiatrist to "change my son". Let's further say that this is a reasonably intelligent and generally well-behaved child, though we are having issues about his practicing this religion. What, then, is a standard psycologist/psychiatrist's response? In any secular setting, any religious neutral setting, the psychiatrist will confirm that the child is able to understand that choice and is making it of their own free will. Once they are satisfied this is the child's choice, they will NOT try to convert the child. They will essentially tell the parents it is the child's choice and "deal with it". Depending on the situation, they may tell the child to try to follow what their parents want until they can go out on their own. They may try to talk to the parents and get them to accept that this is the child's choice OR, if the situation is bad enough, may actually help that child find another place to live. (that last is an extreme measure, only appropriate if the child is truly being threatened or such).
On the other hand, I could very well take my child to a
Christian counselor, who would absolutely try to find out why my child is converting and very much try to deal with it directly, try to bring them back to Christianity.
Homosexuality, as far as the psychiatric association is concerned is just another life choice, like religion, choice of political parties or anything else. It is absolutely a serious issue, but the psychiatrists role is to help them deal with whatever sexuality they have, NOT to try and convert them to another sexuality. Setting up shop as a secular psychiatrist and trying to convert homosexuals is just as wrong as setting up shop and trying to convert Christian kids to be Moslems or Hindus or vice-versa.
She can set herself up as a
Christian counselor, but then she needs to find a Christian counseling program. Whether she is allowed to operate as a trained psychiatrist, as opposed to just calling herself a Christian counselor depends on the state and its laws. In most cases, if she is not willing to adhere to standard psychiatric practices, then she would be proscribed from practicing in any but a religious-specific setting.
