Helping up injured old ladies in China

[Metsfanmax]

My main concern about the larger charitable organizations, which typically have to establish ties with the foreign government, is that the donations not only bankroll some government officials/thugs directly, but the donations also act as a subsidy for maintaining poor institutions. "Why fix things when foreigner money can ease your citizens' burdens?"

Of course, I'm not sure what the magnitude of that harmful effect is, but it's a major concern which doesn't feel good to encourage.

I think that it is significantly outweighed by the help given to the citizens of those countries. The most significant issue preventing them from altering their own governmental structures is their own poverty -- it's impossible to be politically active when you're spending 18 hours per day doing enough work to make sure there's food on the table and that your roof doesn't fall down. Marginally, then, the money you're giving to the impoverished citizens (who have very little money) has a much greater effect than the percentage siphoned off by the local 'thugs' (who presumably have significantly more money).

If that was true, then there'd be no revolts or any kind of civilian unrest in developing countries.

Also, I don't see why poorest of the recipients will somehow become more politically active because they got a immunity shot or a bag of rice. You'd have to subsidize them enough and assume that they'd only work 8 hours a day, and... then what? Why would they become politically active? Why not simply work more and pay for more important things?

Finally, it's a weak assumption that subsidies will induce that kind of change. If anything, they placate, which is why so many governments use tariffs, enact price controls, and subsidize their own peoples' food. Besides, if it really had that potential, then any thug would be keen to control it and take the credit.

There is no guarantee that a stronger political system will result from these donations. My point is that a persistent and stable political advocacy on behalf of these citizens is difficult, nigh on impossible, when almost all of their time is focused on the fact that they don't know whether they will have food tomorrow. Cash transfer programs have a proven record of leaving the individual with a permanently higher consumption rate*, giving them more time and energy to focus on improving their situation rather than subsisting at the bare minimum. Some of them may decide to just earn more money -- but that would also be good, because they'd be working in constructing a stronger and more stable market in their area, improving the economic conditions of those around them as well.

*The available evidence does not suggest that it 'placates' people because it's unlikely that any particular individual will ever again receive a charitable donation, at least on that level. However, if that's a concern you have with cash transfer, consider supporting microfinance organizations instead.

Think about what your stance implies. If you subsidize someone who is poor, they'd somehow become richer. If this was true, then practically zero people in the US would be poor due to decades of welfare subsidies. What else is missing from that equation, and what is it that developing countries lack or are deficient in?*

*those missing variables aren't encouraged by subsidies

This is a very weak argument, and you should be able to see why. The argument is not that subsidies to the poor necessarily means that they'd become richer. It means that, under certain conditions of poverty and certain forms of subidies, you can make many of them permanently richer. This has been demonstrated through a randomized controlled trial in the case of GiveDirectly, and in general is a claim widely supported by the evidence for cash transfer programs to developing nations. We can get into why this may work in Kenya but not in the U.S. if you want, but it's sufficient for me to see the evidence alone to act on it.

[2dimes]

Was that the time you dropped your cell phone in a nearby wet dog dish, 2dimes?

Nope. I slipped last night crossing the avenue. I seem fine but no one stopped to ask when it happened. My wrist is sore.

The phone was a few years ago. I set it on the counter. Bumped it and splash, picked it up right away and it was dead. Tried the rice trick and took it to http://iphix.ca/ now it's a partially functioning music player controlled by the stereo.

[BigBallinStalin]

Okay, Mets. We're not talking about small charities such as GiveDirectly. The issue was about the effects of the larger organizations.

[2dimes]

I thought it was about not caring enough to help someone that has fallen down in public.

[Metsfanmax]

Okay, Mets. We're not talking about small charities such as GiveDirectly. The issue was about the effects of the larger organizations.

The point I'm making is that the marginal benefit of a dollar given to those larger organizations is almost universally at least an order of magnitude lower than a dollar given to the smaller organizations. So no, I don't think they're really worth it. I think that the future of effective charity (once people recognize that RCTs and rigor in the process is a good thing) involves highly-targeted, proven solutions rather than one-size-fits-all foreign aid money or expansive government efforts.

[mrswdk]

I thought it was about not caring enough to help someone that has fallen down in public.

Nope, it's about being afraid of being sued. My natural instinct would be to help up someone who has fallen, but sadly in China I would most likely just pass them by. Maybe you are genuinely prepared to risk a $20,000 compensation payout for the sake of helping someone up, as you claimed earlier, but I'm not.

Just 2 days ago a foreigner in a part of Beijing near to me got scammed by a woman who pretended he'd hit her with his bike and knocked her down (a claim which witnesses said was bullshit). He ended up staying on scene and arguing with her until the police turned up and took them to the hospital. The doctors at the hospital checked her and said there was nothing wrong with her, but the police told him to pay her anyway.

I wouldn't feel good about leaving someone face down on the pavement, but if I think I'm being set up for a lawsuit then no way in hell am I going near them. Wasn't there a case in New York where passers by didn't go to the aid of a stabbing victim because they were worried it was a trap? Same thing.

[2dimes]

I'll be honest. I have not stopped every single time and I have never been to china. I would not have hesitated to try and help that kid in the video. Not sure if there was much you could do but I would have called an ambulance and possibly moved it off the road.

I can't blame anyone for not taking a chance with a conscious adult.

Wasn't there a case in New York where passers by didn't go to the aid of a stabbing victim because they were worried it was a trap? Same thing.

Someone wrote that a few pages back.

I would certainly have to think more in a big American city or China than here. Yet even here I won't pull over right away like I would have last century. If you fall near me I'm probably going to at very least ask if you're ok as opposed to walking away.

In new york I would probably have called nine one one for anyone laid out. Tough to say though. If the person looked like just another person sleeping in a corner how would anyone know they were hurt?

[mrswdk]

From what I've heard, the hesitance to call an ambulance (sometimes) is caused by the same thing that makes people hesitant to help the person get up. A precedent has been set where a judge has declared that the person who helps the injured person is obviously responsible for their injury. Some people are worried that if they call an ambulance then they will become liable for compensation.

I've no idea what I'd do if I saw an injured kid in the road. Given beggars' fondness for using kids as begging props here, I have to say that I couldn't be sure that the injured kid lying in the road is not a trap.

[_sabotage_]

I've been at the police station way too many times t get out drunken brawling friends in China. They always ask you to pay if you are a foreigner, just tell them to f*ck off. It helps if you know how to say it properly... but I'm three for three. I have paid compensation when my dog touched a kid, but not too much.

[Dukasaur]

I thought it was about not caring enough to help someone that has fallen down in public.

Nope, it's about being afraid of being sued. My natural instinct would be to help up someone who has fallen, but sadly in China I would most likely just pass them by. Maybe you are genuinely prepared to risk a $20,000 compensation payout for the sake of helping someone up, as you claimed earlier, but I'm not.

We're only on page 4, and already there are at least 4 competing theories of what this thread is about. An answer to those who claim that Off-Topics is too restrictive to still be called Off-Topics.

[mrswdk]

I've been at the police station way too many times t get out drunken brawling friends in China. They always ask you to pay if you are a foreigner, just tell them to f*ck off. It helps if you know how to say it properly... but I'm three for three. I have paid compensation when my dog touched a kid, but not too much.

操你妈，支那人?

[Agent 86]

I've been at the police station way too many times t get out drunken brawling friends in China. They always ask you to pay if you are a foreigner, just tell them to f*ck off. It helps if you know how to say it properly... but I'm three for three. I have paid compensation when my dog touched a kid, but not too much.

操你妈，支那人?

lol, 不知道他是否可以翻译? There's no way I'm stopping to help in China, way to many scammers unless it's family or someone I know. If it's legit oh well too bad, let them look after themselves. If I'm in the States or back home in Aus, I'm there first to offer any assistance I can. China's laws don't protect you.

[_sabotage_]

f*ck off in Chinese is like this:

Go in seemingly friendly. Tell the cops what a drunk dumb asshole your friend is. Try to negotiate with the other side. Tell the police what dumb assholes the other side is. Then say, this is unreasonable and offer an unreasonably low compensation, which is going to make the other party stick to their guns and seem unreasonable to the police. Then act frustrated and leave.

[_sabotage_]

Yo, by the way, Mrs, is your friend in Beijing? Asked to pay 1800? Apparently it is online and according to my wife, there is a video showing that he hit the woman.

1800 is nothing. Tell them you're poor and say 600 is all you have to give at the moment and will pay the rest later.

Unfortunately, if it is true, then you have kind of fucked your own thread.

Edit: the guy on the motorcycle didn't have a license and when he hit the woman told her to get the f*ck out of the way. There was a witness at the scene that was trying to help the foreigner out, but after he saw the video, recanted.

Edit: And the girlfriend on the back admitted that he hit the lady.

[mrswdk]

Ha, it's not a friend of mine but yeah, that's the story I'm talking about.

Originally a bunch of witnesses said he didn't hit her, but then after the story blew up the state news managed to dig up some 'witnesses' who were happy to blame it all on the laowai. I'm calling bullshit. They're just embarrassed that the police told him to pay up even though the doctors said he was fine and are distracting everyone by demonizing the foreigner. Chinese language versions of the story are being censored on blogging websites. That's usually a sign that officials have done something to be embarrassed about.

[mrswdk]

Agent, which part of China are you in?

[Agent 86]

Changsha 长沙, been here many years...

[_sabotage_]

Sorry Mrs, but if you're saying that foreigners in China are discriminated against and get it rough, then you're talking to the wrong person. I lived on the mainland for 7 years. I and people I know have done and gotten away with so much ridiculous shit with all the authorities involved to think we are hard done by. You may have to pay an occasional compensation for your actions, but in general it is pretty lenient.

if you wish to say that they are manufacturing information, then this does not agree with what I've experienced or those I've known have. They had a tape of my friend just drunkenly pummeling a Chinese guy who had been quietly taking the lift with him. His wife called me over at 4:30 in the morning. A few of our friends had arrived but none could speak Chinese. His wife is telling the cops to give her the handcuffs so that she can arrest her husband in Chinese. Her husband asks me to translate for him. After a while we got to the police station. The guy asked for 80,000. I said that all he had was a 1000 and could pay in monthly installments. He thought this was hilarious, a foreigner is so poor. He said, f*ck it, me and my friends will beat the shit out of him for a minute, if he agrees? The cops said no to this, but my friend was eager... he just wanted to get out of there. Eventually, I stayed at a 1000 which would be an insult for them to take and they dropped the case. And then Dim Sum. But him and a few friends beat the crap out of my friend a few days later, which greatly pleased him as he had been looking for a "real" scrap for quite some time.

[2dimes]

Ok, part of the reason I posted this on page one.

Ha, phatloser. Your jesus is against the law in China. Government money and legislation will solve the problem.

Is because in addition to that being true.

I see things that should be getting better in North America getting worse. We're more advanced than ever before yet can't figure out how to seperate scammers from the rest of the population to make it safe for everyone to choose to help others without losing their wallet or even worse. As has been rightly pointed out it does seem similar to the OP.

Here I go, "blah blah the bible" records Jesus, as telling a story about a guy getting robbed and beaten. Next thing an important government person came by but wouldn't help. Then a high ranking priest (one noted for keeping the law by the way) also wouldn't help. Finally an atheist from a region so foul that it was perfectly ok to be racist (or whatever word you want to use there) toward shows up. He helps the guy and takes him to a nice inn to recover. Pays the medical bill and finally tells the inn keeper. "Hey bud, you know me. If that's not enough money. Just make sure he gets better. I'll pay more next time I come here." He finishes by asking, Who was the guys neighbor?

I think this non religious link might be relevant.
http://www.businessinsider.com/china-wa ... ion-2013-3

The point that matches this from that article is,

an overwhelming lack of motivation by authorities.

government everywhere is increasingly being run by selfish people who have enough motivation to get elected.

Funny how China is communist. The point being missed is everything is supposed to be for the good of the whole group. Human nature opposes that as this whole conversation supports in my opinion.

I think being an atheist is usually fine. I'm going to sound like the guy defending himself while being a racist, "Most of my friends are atheists." My opinion of "christians" is not actually very good. I agree with Gandhi when he said something like, "Jesus is great, I don't like his followers."

I honestly believe the push to change the west from a "Christian" place to an atheist one is making it worse though, not better.

[2dimes]

They had a tape of my friend just drunkenly pummeling a Chinese guy who had been quietly taking the lift with him. His wife called me over at 4:30 in the morning. A few of our friends had arrived but none could speak Chinese. His wife is telling the cops to give her the handcuffs so that she can arrest her husband in Chinese. Her husband asks me to translate for him. After a while we got to the police station. The guy asked for 80,000. I said that all he had was a 1000 and could pay in monthly installments. He thought this was hilarious, a foreigner is so poor. He said, f*ck it, me and my friends will beat the shit out of him for a minute, if he agrees? The cops said no to this, but my friend was eager... he just wanted to get out of there. Eventually, I stayed at a 1000 which would be an insult for them to take and they dropped the case. And then Dim Sum. But him and a few friends beat the crap out of my friend a few days later, which greatly pleased him as he had been looking for a "real" scrap for quite some time.

Thanks for writing that out. I presume the tape was video. Was the Chinese guy looking for a "real" scrap or your buddy?

[Agent 86]

Sorry Mrs, but if you're saying that foreigners in China are discriminated against and get it rough, then you're talking to the wrong person. I lived on the mainland for 7 years. I and people I know have done and gotten away with so much ridiculous shit with all the authorities involved to think we are hard done by. You may have to pay an occasional compensation for your actions, but in general it is pretty lenient.

This is true, but the compensation can be high if you cause trouble and want to stay. I prefer to keep out of trouble, make friends and life is very good.

[mrswdk]

You seriously don't believe that the state would manufacture a bogus cover-up if it helped deflect attention away from the inept law enforcement system and onto the foreigner?

I don't know how you came off best in a concrete 'foreigner attacked local' situation but I can only guess that this story didn't take place in Beijing or Shanghai and/or you have some good guanxi that you aren't telling us about.

[Agent 86]

You seriously don't believe that the state would manufacture a bogus cover-up if it helped deflect attention away from the inept law enforcement system and onto the foreigner?

I don't know how you came off best in a concrete 'foreigner attacked local' situation but I can only guess that this story didn't take place in Beijing or Shanghai and/or you have some good 琯 that you aren't telling us about.

That was going to be my next question too _sabotage_ , you must have had some 琯 or they were poor without any friends so the police just didn't care.

[_sabotage_]

Speaking of guaxi, when we were at the station there was a cop from a different station there trying to get his friend out, I'm a cop let him go!

No, didn't use guanxi, used cultural knowledge. I have several such stories. I got a call from a true drunk saying he was in a building and couldn't get out. It was fractured and about 4 in the morning. When I found him he was being taken to the station. He had been out at a bar and got invited home by two girls there. At their place, he was aggressively defending his bottle of Jack, but when they were playfully trying to get it off him, it fell and broke. He punched one in the head and slapped the other and ran, and a few minutes later gave me the call. At the station, he (unfortunately) speaks fluent Mandarin and wouldn't shut up. He kept asking soliciting sex from the girls as part of the him paying compensation. They wanted 3000, I offered 500, he offered 500 but bumped it to 800 including sex. After a bit, we left without paying and never heard about it again.

If you want to make it in China: don't fight, if you fight, don't win, if you win, leave, if you don't leave offer a little money and say you'll pay later. And don't drive.

My buddy was looking for a real scrap and frequently beat the guy from this post up a little before getting bored.

Would the media do it? Yes, do they really need to? There are foreigners raising hell all over the country, it is like the last bit of the wild west, if they wanted to make the laowei look bad, they could be publishing real stuff everyday.

[2dimes]

Well this thread is separating those who write about going abroad to immerse ourselves in local culture and _sabotage_

Have you killed anyone sab?