New Classic Competition?

[InkL0sed]

I think the best solution would be to have a small exclusionary group of map makers and site staff create a map that is near final forge status upon first draft. Anything is better than what we have now, and not to mention the only people who know what is in bounds and what isn't is the staff, and they aren't saying.

There are situations were the input of the masses is best, this is not one of them. If there is any attempt to take this down the normal foundry road, it will be disastrous and lengthy. A small group of dedicated individuals can resolve this issue in a week.

Basically, I am saying f*ck the competition. I refused to play on the current piece of shit, as do many people, and I certainly don't want to wait around for contest deadlines, voting, eventual quenching and uploading to play a decent game of Risk, er ConquerClub.

I am quite surprised the site staff seem to be laid back about this. I am sure they care, but do they realize that the classic map was like 90% of their "business". This is really no time for games, it's a time for solution.

I completely agree.

[jiminski]

well i can't play the temp map either but i would like the same quality of map to arise as with Brazil; that did take competition.
Excluding the circumstances which complicated the finalisation, Brazil was effectively completed in 1 month.

Are you suggesting that 4 or so of the best map-makers draft a proposal each and the experts chose, tinker, tailor and then put it to the community for tweaks? if so that may be ok.

[mibi]

I am quite surprised the site staff seem to be laid back about this. I am sure they care, but do they realize that the classic map was like 90% of their "business". This is really no time for games, it's a time for solution.

The decision to pull the old classic map was taken by the CC admins, and us Foundry volunteers are playing catch up... I've been away from home for the past two days, and came back to this mess... All I know is that the old classic has gone, and that we're doing our best to find a workable solution. I can assure you that we are trying to work towards a quick solution, but we're also trying to get something in place that has been thought out...

I suppose the underlying problem is I have no faith in the CC admins to come up with a workable solution in a timely fashion. The site administrators have a history of botching the most minor updates and bringing innovation to a crawl. And that was when they weren't under the gun. Now we are in a situation where the fan base is hemorrhaging, confidence is eroding with each non-official update, and goodwill is being wasted.

Actually, this reminds me of the situation in the United States right now. There is a crisis, but no leader ship, and only half baked work around solutions. The market, er, the CC users are running amok because no one knows what the f*ck is going on and no one will tell them.

In all honesty, my money is better spent in the market right now then a website with no focus, no consideration, and frankly, no ambition.

[edbeard]

I think the idea which Oaktown brought up in another thread is the best one. Have multiple images available for Classic so people can pick and choose. Obviously they'd all have to fit a certain standard and finding one image to 'market' as classic is important but it would lessen the blow of people not liking the one new image for the map.

for now, finding one good image is important. allowing other images to be used is something that can be done later. Hire someone (wm, mibi, someone else here, someone new) to get one out there quickly. Use the competition to find images that can be alternates which have to go through some form of the agonizingly slow foundry process.

[Kaplowitz]

Its already taking too long, its been more than a day without anything official. The thread that we are sent to is an 80 page thread with just people bitching and the occasional post by Twill saying "sorry, there is nothing that we can do right now!"

I'll forgive CC for not having any planning whatsoever ( -- it could have easily been done) but why arent the admins even responding to the situation. By now there should at least be an announcement, an official thread in the foundry saying the plan, and people working on maps. We can be really efficient with this, if we just try to be!

[AndyDufresne]

We are actively working, Kap, just hold ye bananas. Oaktown, Mrbenn, and I are going to do some finalization on some ideas. Hopefully we'll get it all up within the next day or two.


--Andy

Its already taking too long, its been more than a day without anything official. The thread that we are sent to is an 80 page thread with just people bitching and the occasional post by Twill saying "sorry, there is nothing that we can do right now!"

I'll forgive CC for not having any planning whatsoever ( -- it could have easily been done) but why arent the admins even responding to the situation. By now there should at least be an announcement, an official thread in the foundry saying the plan, and people working on maps. We can be really efficient with this, if we just try to be!

[owenshooter]

We are actively working, Kap, just hold ye bananas. Oaktown, Mrbenn, and I are going to do some finalization on some ideas. Hopefully we'll get it all up within the next day or two.

sweet banana, mr. monkey man. and again, i am looking forward to the new classic map competition.-0

[delahoc]

Its already taking too long, its been more than a day without anything official. The thread that we are sent to is an 80 page thread with just people bitching and the occasional post by Twill saying "sorry, there is nothing that we can do right now!"

I'll forgive CC for not having any planning whatsoever ( -- it could have easily been done) but why arent the admins even responding to the situation. By now there should at least be an announcement, an official thread in the foundry saying the plan, and people working on maps. We can be really efficient with this, if we just try to be!

Hear Hear!!

[oaktown]

It is very easy to get upset and attack the Admins for way this change has gone down, but if that is what this thread turns into it will be merged with the GD thread.

Instead, it would be nice to use this thread as a place to actually have a discussion about how we would like to see this progress. If we can do that, the thread will be useful and be kept open.

So let's discuss. It has been proposed that we hold a New Classic Map Competition, and Andy, MrBenn and I have had conversations about doing this as well. Here's what I see are the positives and negatives to this idea:

Positives: it will get the larger community involved in the process, and hopefully create some sense of buy-in. Plus, it will just be fun.
Negatives: it won't be as fast as folks would like... once we figure out the rules and announce the competition mapmakers will need two or three weeks to make a draft, followed by one or two rounds of voting, then we need to polish the winner up for live play. And I would argue that, whatever map wins, there will always be haters.

Edbeard mentioned my idea of encouraging the Foundry to come up with multiple Classic maps... maps with different themes but all using the exact same gameplay that we know and love in Classic. It isn't easy to do, but it's not impossible - the USA map is almost precisely the same play as Classic, just flipped on it's head. Where a single new Classic won't have 100% support, multiple maps might make more people happy, but unless we really advertised the new map threads it wouldn't draw in the crowds that a competition and vote would attract. As for the time-frame on this, well, no map will be created faster than somebody can work.

So, any thoughts on the possible creation of multiple Classic "skins" as MrBenn calls them?

[spiesr]

They way I see it 2 maps need to be made.
The first will be a graphical improvement on the current classic. It will retain the game play but most likely not be a world map.
The second will be a new world map with different game play but the feel of the old classic.

[Incandenza]

How would the skins work? Would it be possible for people playing in the same game to see different maps? Or would the maps be separate and distinct entities?

btw, for the record I'm not trying to be a hater. It just seems like this whole thing has come along at the worst possible time vis-a-vis the health of the foundry. I also don't think mibi's idea of a classic map "star chamber" is a bad idea.

[oaktown]

How would the skins work? Would it be possible for people playing in the same game to see different maps? Or would the maps be separate and distinct entities?

My thinking - and this is just something I'm pulling out of my large hippo ass - is that there would be more than one classic on the map select page... the first row could show "Classic: Europe" next to "Classic: Space" next to "Classic: Atlantis" or whatever we come up with. You start a game in Atlantis, you play in Atlantis.

btw, for the record I'm not trying to be a hater. It just seems like this whole thing has come along at the worst possible time vis-a-vis the health of the foundry.

Would there ever be a good time? At least the foundry wasn't responsible for this change... but it has been pretty dead around here as of late. Maybe this will liven things up.

I also don't think mibi's idea of a classic map "star chamber" is a bad idea.

Agreed. Right now all options are on the table.

[delahoc]

Hey, don't get me wrong - I'm all for getting this fixed as soon as possible, and I'm happy to do what I can to contribute.

Here's my thoughts (in no particular logical order):

* One of the things that has attracted so many people to CC is how close the classic map was to what they wanted to play (I think you know what I mean). So we need a world map - that's what CLASSIC needs to be. It should have the same gameplay we expect. We haven't been told what will be required to make it different enough not to cause issues, but it also needs to be similar enough to continue to meet the expectations of members - it needs to be the game (and therefore the map) we joined to play.

* While a competition sounds like a good and reasonable idea for a quality longer term solution, I cannot see myself sticking around for a month or two playing that crappy geometric map. I strongly urge you to find a quick, if interim, solution. A graphical map for classic that is at least something like what we came here to play. This may be where the 'star chamber' idea can be put to good use. The smaller the working committee, the quicker the possible outcome. It doesn't have to be brilliant - almost anything will be better than what we have today.

* Yes, certainly getting everybody involved in the long term solution is a good idea, and will certainly gain the buy-in you seek. As you surmise, not everyone will be happy (they never are), but your chances will be increased.

* To begin your replacement map competition, you will need to set some criteria that new maps will have to meet. I think it would be good to begin that discussion now, so people can start thinking early, and make their contributions to that as well. We will need the moderator's assistance to get that conversation going - because only they know what it was about the classic map that made it necessary to bring it down. (Note: why is it that CC had to bring down that map when there are so many other sites with similar clone maps that don't seem to be bothered??) For example - can it have the same territory divisions? Can it have the same territory names? Does it need to have different territory linking?

* Apart from the design of a replacement map, I still think there needs to be a discussion of some sort regarding the changes in terminology that have been adopted. For some of us, it make the whole gaming experience far less satisfying than it was. And in my opinion (as I've expressed many times) it seems profoundly unnecessary.

I hope my first few thoughts will assist in getting this important process off the ground.

[tenio]

NOW (1 week max) : Have some 1 do a quick Classic Remake, change some lines, some names, gameplay same

Later (normal foundry time) (decades ) : Competition, change alot, but keep it based on the original classic, having it flipped or reversed or something would just be annoying, gameplay = same.

And the idea of multiple classics just seems stupid if the gameplay is to remain the same.

NOW (2 days) : some1 make unoficial plugin that take the new classic~ and replaces it with the old classic

[mibi]

I really like the idea of having all kinds of varients on the classic map, it would help liven it up for sure. But only after a standard replacement is up ASAP. "Star chamber" a map in the next week, then lets all relax and have fun with a contest and such, without feeling rushed and under the gun.

Ofcourse no one really knows what is allowed and what isn't so its pretty pointless to toss ideas out there if there is a good chance it will be, fail.

[Incandenza]

I really like the idea of having all kinds of varients on the classic map, it would help liven it up for sure. But only after a standard replacement is up ASAP. "Star chamber" a map in the next week, then lets all relax and have fun with a contest and such, without feeling rushed and under the gun.

Hells to the yeah. Even something quick 'n dirty will be light years beyond what we've got now... make a couple of borders look different, maybe name terits after a major city within their borders instead of region names, and sate the clamoring masses while we evaluate a more permanent solution...

Ofcourse no one really knows what is allowed and what isn't so its pretty pointless to toss ideas out there if there is a good chance it will be, fail.

But then of course there's this... without knowing the parameters, it makes things hard, but I can't imagine that said parameters won't be divulged relatively shortly.

[gho]

To avoid most of the problems all CC needs to do is rename most of the territories to more geographically correct names, ie. Ukraine --> Russia, India --> Indian Subcontinent etc.
Other changes to make would be:
*merge east and west Australia to form Australia, and create a new territory called New Zealand
*Link kamchatka to mongolia

[hulmey]

Just get some to make a map for $100 and throw it on for now! Then have the competition afterwards. We need the classic map NOW not in 1, 2 or 3 even months!

[delahoc]

I can sense a pattern emerging here ...

[MrBenn]

To begin your replacement map competition, you will need to set some criteria that new maps will have to meet. I think it would be good to begin that discussion now, so people can start thinking early, and make their contributions to that as well.

I imagine that a replacement map of the world is going to be off the 'spoils'... I expect that it's going to need to be something with a totally different theme... but these are some of the details that we're trying to work out behind the scenes - expect some answers in the next day or so...

And the idea of multiple classics just seems stupid if the gameplay is to remain the same.

If, as speculatively expected, there is going to be a lack veto on another map of the world with classic gameplay, then it's going to be damned impossible to find something that everybody likes - multiple maps will have the greatest appeal.

I really like the idea of having all kinds of variants on the classic map, it would help liven it up for sure. But only after a standard replacement is up ASAP. "Star chamber" a map in the next week, then lets all relax and have fun with a contest and such, without feeling rushed and under the gun.

I couldn't agree more that speed is of the essence; I have no idea what timescales are going to be feasable, but in my mind I think that it would be perfectly possible to have an open competition with results by the end of the month (2 wks)

[Incandenza]

If, as speculatively expected, there is going to be a lack veto on another map of the world with classic gameplay, then it's going to be damned impossible to find something that everybody likes - multiple maps will have the greatest appeal

Seriously?!?!? There's an "expected" lack veto on any sort of map depicting the world with perfectly classic gameplay? Wow, not to put too fine a point on it, this would be really rockin' to hear from the turtle's mouth. And not to join the phalanx of internet lawyers that have reared their heads, but that seems excessively cautious. Excessively cautious to the point where I imagine that there was serious discussion over the long canadian weekend over whether or not to just shut down the site and refund people a prorated portion of their premiums. Hasbro must've really put the fear of god in the poor guy.

So, the relevant emoticon again:

[MrBenn]

I haven't heard anything official... just speculating... that's one of the problems about living on the other side of the planet from the Top Turtle

[OliverFA]

* One of the things that has attracted so many people to CC is how close the classic map was to what they wanted to play (I think you know what I mean). So we need a world map - that's what CLASSIC needs to be. It should have the same gameplay we expect. We haven't been told what will be required to make it different enough not to cause issues, but it also needs to be similar enough to continue to meet the expectations of members - it needs to be the game (and therefore the map) we joined to play.

My first let's say 10 or 20 games were exlusively on the Classic map. And I am sure that that was the case for most people. Classic is needed to attract new people to the site.

[delahoc]

I imagine that a replacement map of the world is going to be off the 'spoils'... I expect that it's going to need to be something with a totally different theme... but these are some of the details that we're trying to work out behind the scenes - expect some answers in the next day or so...

If, as speculatively expected, there is going to be a lack veto on another map of the world with classic gameplay, then it's going to be damned impossible to find something that everybody likes - multiple maps will have the greatest appeal.

I couldn't agree more that speed is of the essence; I have no idea what timescales are going to be feasable, but in my mind I think that it would be perfectly possible to have an open competition with results by the end of the month (2 wks)

Are you saying that there is little chance of getting a classic-like world map with classic-like gameplay? If that's correct, then what's the point? Because that's exactly what we're all asking for.

[jiminski]

If, as speculatively expected, there is going to be a lack veto on another map of the world with classic gameplay, then it's going to be damned impossible to find something that everybody likes - multiple maps will have the greatest appeal

My thinking - and this is just something I'm pulling out of my large hippo ass - is that there would be more than one classic on the map select page... the first row could show "Classic: Europe" next to "Classic: Space" next to "Classic: Atlantis" or whatever we come up with. You start a game in Atlantis, you play in Atlantis.

so the point is that we will not be able to have the world map at all with this gameplay?
We can maintain the gameplay but it has to be an entirely different map?


As speculation goes this is pretty dramatic! We really need that cleared up fast.

In effect what this would mean that Classic is completely dead... heh that does have fairly major implications and it is not how it is playing with the masses at the moment.

We need clarification on that precise point immediately.