Is this all an illusion?

[DoomYoshi]

It seems our economy is based on people creating goods and providing services that other people don't actually need.

Why are we working these useless jobs?

So we can pay for goods and services we don't need.

[warmonger1981]

Is it possible to have unlimited economic growth with limited resources?Do economies grow due to new products or do economies grow more due to the the rules and regulations that come with that product.

[shickingbrits]

The idea that resources is limited is an illusion.

The government exists and gains strength from servicing problems. Where problems exist, it is in their interest to protract them, add to them and service them in a limited way. Where they don't exist, it's in their interest to bring them to life.

The day we have solved our housing needs for the long-term, solved our energy needs for the long term, solved our water, sanitation and nutrition needs for the long -term, have a platform for peace, then the government will disappear.

A citizens efforts should be towards increasing their own prosperity, a government effort is to make citizens rely on the government. While the system allows for a few individuals to become wealthy, it ensures inequality. As such, thorium being defunded makes sense, houses blocking natural energy are expected and industrial hemp with zero THC being illegal is policy.

[DoomYoshi]

Is it possible to have unlimited economic growth with limited resources?

It depends how you define economic growth. Economists define economic growth in terms of dollar values, which is devoid of reality.

I define economic growth in terms of things that make my life better; so I pretty much have a capped income of like 20k. After that, it's all just funny money.

[DoomYoshi]

The idea that resources is limited is an illusion.

Agreed. There can always be more video games; although some electrons will be inconvenienced.

[shickingbrits]

Most electrons I know of seem to work to be part of something bigger than themselves. So maybe they will be convenienced.

[tzor]

It seems our economy is based on people creating goods and providing services that other people don't actually need.

Need has nothing to do with it. Desire has everything to do with it.

I don't need complex variations in air pressure, but I'll pay good money to watch a live opera performance.

[notyou2]

The idea that resources is limited is an illusion.

Please explain why you feel all resources are unlimited.

[shickingbrits]

We have unlimited access to power, access to grow food wherever we want, access to plentiful water, access to plentiful oxygen.

[BigBallinStalin]

We have unlimited access to power, access to grow food wherever we want, access to plentiful water, access to plentiful oxygen.

If "unlimited access" means "scarce, thus requiring expenditures to acquire," then yes, you are correct, sir.

[saxitoxin]

It seems our economy is based on people creating goods and providing services that other people don't actually need.

Why are we working these useless jobs?

because of this

It is obvious, of course, that the economic position of this nation is in no slight degree due to our possession of abundant raw materials and sources of power, to the fact that our domestic market is so large, and that there are no trade barriers between the States of our Union. We can exchange goods without stopping them for inspection or the payment of duties between States. We can effect their transfer without the barriers of differing languages or customs. Advertising is peculiarly effective because we have so great an area with a common language which enables us to talk to all the people and to develop national consumption habits, which in turn make possible large-scale production.

And these increases in productivity have been joined to a corresponding increase in the consuming power of the American people. Here has been demonstrated on a grand scale the expansibility of human wants and desires. Economists have long declared that consumption, the satisfaction of wants, would expand with little evidence of satiation if we could so adjust our economic processes as to make dormant demands effective. Such an expansion has been going on since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. It is not a phenomenon of the postwar period, except in degree. But it is this degree of economic activity, this almost insatiable appetite for goods and services, abounding production of all things which almost any man can want, which is so striking a characteristic of the period covered by the survey.

As long as the appetite for goods and services is practically insatiable, as it appears to be, and as long as productivity can be consistently increased, it would seem that we can go on with increasing activity.

Our situation is fortunate, our momentum is remarkable.

- John J. Raskob, KCSG
- Dr. Max Mason
- Gen. Julius Klein
- Adolph Miller
- Owen D. Young

http://www.nber.org/chapters/c4950.pdf

[BigBallinStalin]

Yeah, people prefer more rather than less, so if they have more income, and you offer them something they like, then they're very likely to trade.

It doesn't take a detailed 1929 conspiracy to state the obvious.

inb4: "but marketing makes people want stuff." Uh-huh. In a world without marketing, people would still prefer more instead of less.

[saxitoxin]

The NBER is part of a conspiracy? What are they conspiring to do?

[rishaed]

The NBER is part of a conspiracy? What are they conspiring to do?

You, Saxi. You. Never Forget it.

[Lootifer]

inb4: "but marketing makes people want stuff." Uh-huh. In a world without marketing, people would still prefer more instead of less.

Marketing and other forms of sales techniques (including designed obsolescence) don't make people want stuff. It makes them want more stuff, or stuff they might otherwise not want without further prompting.

It's a grey scale, and I am not going to be so binary as saying all marketing/sales is evil. However I am a firm believer that one of the great weaknesses of a human free market is the ease with which we are manipulated.

So I agree with DYs premise that a lot of our economy is leveraging, in simple terms, our gullibility/stupidity (ie creating stuff that either won't improve our life, or will improve it less than the advertised amount).

But before BBS goes all attack monkey on me, I don't assume the solution to the problem is regulating marketing or anything silly like that. I would however suggest a neutral, possibly centralized - but certainly doesn't have to be, entity be given the specific mandate to provide education that directly addresses the demonstrably negative aspects of "demand inflating" (for lack of a better word).

[DoomYoshi]

But before BBS goes all attack monkey on me, I don't assume the solution to the problem is regulating marketing or anything silly like that. I would however suggest a neutral, possibly centralized - but certainly doesn't have to be, entity be given the specific mandate to provide education that directly addresses the demonstrably negative aspects of "demand inflating" (for lack of a better word).

We can self-regulate.

The pay-it-forward economy eventually has to crash. If we emotionally brace ourselves for the collapse of the global Ponzi scheme, we will be better off if it comes in our lifetime.

Buying into the system seems like a recipe for disaster, since it only enables the rich to get richer and the poor to get debtier.

[BigBallinStalin]

The NBER is part of a conspiracy? What are they conspiring to do?

Your post is alluding to your previous point about marketing and creating demand for goods. You can address that, or play your song-and-dance rubbish.

[Metsfanmax]

The idea that resources is limited is an illusion.

In SB's defense, Paul Ehrlich has been pretty wrong for a pretty long time now.

[saxitoxin]

The NBER is part of a conspiracy? What are they conspiring to do?

Your post is alluding to your previous point about marketing and creating demand for goods. You can address that, or play your song-and-dance rubbish.

My only contribution to this thread was four syllables ("because of this") followed by a short except from a report by the National Bureau of Economic Research.

You might have me confused with someone else. You might be hearing voices. You might not know what the word "allude" means. It's probable it's one of those three things. It's possible it's all three.

[mrswdk]

Why are we working these useless jobs?

So we can pay for goods and services we don't need.

If you don't feel like there's any point in doing your job then why don't you quit it?

[demonfork]

It seems our economy is based on people creating goods and providing services that other people don't actually need.

Why are we working these useless jobs?

So we can pay for goods and services we don't need.

Did you just watch Fight Club or sumpin?

[shickingbrits]

We have unlimited access to power, access to grow food wherever we want, access to plentiful water, access to plentiful oxygen.

If "unlimited access" means "scarce, thus requiring expenditures to acquire," then yes, you are correct, sir.

No, not scarce and thus requiring expenditure to acquire, but widely available and require collection.

The sun provides more energy than we could ever use, and yet we turn our backs on it in our buildings. Our water is plentiful and we pollute it until its no longer drinkable. When we have technology that makes use of widely available resources, we ban it, legislate against it, buy and bury.

Because it's better to profit someone to pollute, and then pay another to service the pollution than to have those guys sitting around talking about how the government isn't doing anything and should be dismissed.

[DoomYoshi]

It seems our economy is based on people creating goods and providing services that other people don't actually need.

Why are we working these useless jobs?

So we can pay for goods and services we don't need.

Did you just watch Fight Club or sumpin?

You are not your fucking khakis!

[BigBallinStalin]

The NBER is part of a conspiracy? What are they conspiring to do?

Your post is alluding to your previous point about marketing and creating demand for goods. You can address that, or play your song-and-dance rubbish.

My only contribution to this thread was four syllables ("because of this") followed by a short except from a report by the National Bureau of Economic Research.

You might have me confused with someone else. You might be hearing voices. You might not know what the word "allude" means. It's probable it's one of those three things. It's possible it's all three.

Ah, the song-and-dance. Good job.

[BigBallinStalin]

We have unlimited access to power, access to grow food wherever we want, access to plentiful water, access to plentiful oxygen.

If "unlimited access" means "scarce, thus requiring expenditures to acquire," then yes, you are correct, sir.

No, not scarce and thus requiring expenditure to acquire, but widely available and require collection.

The sun provides more energy than we could ever use, and yet we turn our backs on it in our buildings. Our water is plentiful and we pollute it until its no longer drinkable. When we have technology that makes use of widely available resources, we ban it, legislate against it, buy and bury.

Because it's better to profit someone to pollute, and then pay another to service the pollution than to have those guys sitting around talking about how the government isn't doing anything and should be dismissed.

Yeah, still not making sense. You seem to be ignoring opportunity cost and how profit/loss accounting works.