Macken
The OP says it hoped for a discussion and that the rules be clarified which I think was achieved. We also committed to reviewing what we can do on our end to clarify things by the next Platoon Edition (~April 1st)
Clan Sitting Rules Discussion
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IcePack
- Multi Hunter
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Re: Clan Sitting Rules Discussion
fac vitam incredibilem memento vivere
Knowledge Weighs Nothing, Carry All You Can
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PaulatPeace
- Posts: 303
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- Location: THE OMEGA PANTHEON
Re: Clan Sitting Rules Discussion
swimmerdude99 wrote:I just find it humorous. A clan you deemed "not following honor, and offensive" ended up not keeping freefalling123 in their clan (can't remember if it was Empire AOC at that time or ACE). But Paul, while you are on your crusade to do right would take in a once already convicted cheater (or maybe rule-bender is a better word) into your clan. Then you defend him when he does something again. Isn't that so opposite to enlightenment and truth?Vid_FISO wrote:Given that every time PaulatPeace posts he his giving more evidence of TOP deliberately attempting to manipulate the sitting rules, is there likely to be further repercussions for TOP as a result?
I was about to comment on this as well. Its so odd to me that he would defend someone so toughly when its cheating/bending-rules. Doesn't that just point out how flawed his crusade to being truthful is? IF you have to make excuses for most of what you do, isn't that a hint you might be doing something wrong?
Since IcePack removed my thread from the Clan Forum, although it stemmed in part from conversations here in this thread...I thought it prudent to post the link to it here:
https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=221852&view=unread#unread
Paul
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FreeFalling123
- Posts: 289
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- Location: Twin Cities
Re: Clan Sitting Rules Discussion
All right clan world... I see this as a productive, constructive piece, but for each their own...
[spoiler=intro]This is something that I felt should be stated... I am not upset if the scoring in the match TOP against S&M is 5-3, 3-5; rather, I want to highlight the clan sitting rules, and draw attention to the fact that we won the original game. Without the counterfeit, we would in fact be 4-4, 5-3 in favor of my clan... obviously no bias here at all
...
Did anyone else wonder why this become such a big issue between parties?
In the original USA 2.1 game, I was guested during the 3rd round for abusing account sitting privileges outside of clan warfare.
-- Notice the banned came from this being a consecutive consequence of a former abuse 3 years ago in account sharing --
The game was NOT remade due to my account sharing instances, rather Josko's/Random's "tactical advantages" theory. Sitting for a teammate becomes a tactical advantage in games wherein a stronger player takes a move for a weaker player. Especially, so when it is in crucial early rounds of the game and in "excess".
-- Excess was concluded as 2 sits in a beginning round...
I will share my most objective view of the issues in clan sitting, but first hear my first hand account. I am stating 100% how I am very biased in this case (now twice) -- since I am a part of TOP. Still, since I am the one at fault for causing the remade game, I want to prevent future instances from causing huge issues for other players here as well.[/spoiler]
[spoiler=details]Details in first game:USA 2.1 Game 17093532
I sat for Nibotha very late at night, after not accessing CC for 23 hours.
I did not communicate with nibs outside of CC during this period or have any knowledge until I played about 9-10 of my games, when I noticed the USA 2.1 game in the RED zone (time running out).
On a side note -- I actually was able to post notes at the end of my turn (a round before Nibotha were to play), then restated them 15 minutes after his move began to say it was still playable.
At 30 minutes I then played the exact move I posted 23 hours prior, which is why Nibs made the statement "what's the difference who makes the move if it's already in the chatbox."
I understand this is fallacious as the moves discernment is always in the movers discretion.
The next day, I sat for jb in the early morning, with no outside communication with him. I woke up at 5AM and he had 2 hours left on his clock, so I tried to ask in chat if he was around, then at 6AM I played the move as I needed more rest before work and frankly, I didn't want to risk missing the move.
-- I know this is small time stuff, but I could easily complain that Josko filling the chat with obscurities greatly obstructed our communications. It was a great distraction play from him because we use the chatbox solely for our communication.
-- After my first sitting instance, I researched what josko was saying. I tried to understand if we had inaccurately followed the rules, but there was nowhere stating that a player couldn't take whatever turns he wanted during his 24 hour allotment. Since we are all intelligent people here we can understand the idea to take moves at the 17-21 hour mark wherein they fall at our sleeping period in RL, while leaving our most important move for last. It just happens that Nibs ran out of time before he was going to work in his morning.
Both of my teammates may have been planning on taking their turns at 10-30 minutes left on the clock point, for all I know. However, when I logged on, I didn't think to analyze the situation that deeply. I thought it better to play it safe and take the turns.
-- jb actually would have gotten on to take his turn with 10 minutes left and I have no idea if Nibs would have made it because I do not have access to his login times.[/spoiler]
[spoiler=stipulations]Questionable stipulations to be drawn... Be warned, many ill-advised stipulations follow:
First and foremost, if you are trash player, these things will most likely be overlooked and perhaps allowed... as it may be seen as a tactical advantage to allow a trash players to break the rules.
Timeliness Guide
1. If your teammate was online 16 hours earlier -- he left notes in chat, then at the 2 hour stage calling it emergency coverage is debatable
2. If your teammate was taking other turns during the 24 time span, then at the 2 hour stage emergency coverage is debatable
3. If your teammate was taking moves in the last 3 hours, then at the 2 hour stage you may not claim an emergency (work, family emergency, power outage, etc.)
Contrarily -- If your teammate does not log on at all during the 24 hour span, then this is no problem as there is no intent to take the move
-- believe it or not, having an intent to try to take your own moves once every 24 hours is not necessary in order to play in clan games (from what I am hearing)
Strategy: When your teammate has under 2 hours on their clock and you can sit for them, but you are winning/losing the game by a large sum, then do not account sit for them.
-- By doing this, your team can argue that missing turns is an important function in following the sitting rules.
TIP: Make sure you comment that you are intentionally missing their turn because it is crucial to make sure other people realize you are not over-using account sitting privileges.
-- Also, this will keep your account sitting numbers lower for when moderators are judging your account sitting cases...
NOTE: Even sitting for games outside of clan warfare may be included in clan rulings... BEWARE[/spoiler]
[spoiler=tactical advantages]Discretionary List: Tactical Advantages
1. If it is the first round of a game, which perhaps is the most important turn, then having a teammate miss in order to not gain a tactical advantage is more ethnically correct than account sitting for your teammate.
1a. Unless it is an escalating game because when the cashes get higher these turns near the cashing period are the most important turns
1b. Unless it is in the middle of a foggy no spoil game, wherein you accurately navigate through the fog to break a bonus, then that turn can become unethical (depends on how your opponent/moderating staff feels)
2. If the sitter isn't in the game, then it's not a tactical advantage
Unless that player happens to be really good at the map,
3. If you sit for a lower ranked player who is on your team, then it is a tactical advantage
unless you or him point dumped beforehand to counterfeit this rule[/spoiler]
[spoiler=bad joke]Resulting Sitting Improvement Theory
-- Allow no communication so team games are completely in the hands of the players and not the team --
Step 1: Turn off the chat box in clan wars
Step 2: Make the board invisible unless it is your turn
Step 3: Make it completely illegal to log in to someone else's account during clan moves.
Step 4: Invest in a camera to prove that you are indeed the player making your own moves.
Step 5: Players may only take 5 minutes to make their move
Step 6: Proof of receiving no outside help required (do not forget to include exact times in the livestream of the video)
-- If any clan is found using teamwork to coordinate their moves, or supporting each other during real life issues (especially better players), we will start forcing them to send nudes to the clan department (blackmailing may ensue / reimbursement back into the clan world may be expensive).[/spoiler]
[spoiler=closing]Sorry if this comes off as trolling to many. To me, this is legitimate stuff. I understand, it can seem quite insensitive to abuse rules. I honestly have never once been told I should:
1. Look at the login times of my partner
2. Be careful not to sit for partners during decisive moves
3. Have an overwhelming clear reason as to why I was account sitting
At what stage did we decide that players are accountable to not make any mistakes in their RL vs. CC commitments?
If you guys can't see why this feels very personal / directed at our members, then I am sorry for burdening you with my efforts. I truly hope it does not affect any of you next, as I am sure you have all been there to see someone needing an account sit.[/spoiler]
-- FF
[spoiler=intro]This is something that I felt should be stated... I am not upset if the scoring in the match TOP against S&M is 5-3, 3-5; rather, I want to highlight the clan sitting rules, and draw attention to the fact that we won the original game. Without the counterfeit, we would in fact be 4-4, 5-3 in favor of my clan... obviously no bias here at all
... Did anyone else wonder why this become such a big issue between parties?
In the original USA 2.1 game, I was guested during the 3rd round for abusing account sitting privileges outside of clan warfare.
-- Notice the banned came from this being a consecutive consequence of a former abuse 3 years ago in account sharing --
The game was NOT remade due to my account sharing instances, rather Josko's/Random's "tactical advantages" theory. Sitting for a teammate becomes a tactical advantage in games wherein a stronger player takes a move for a weaker player. Especially, so when it is in crucial early rounds of the game and in "excess".
-- Excess was concluded as 2 sits in a beginning round...
I will share my most objective view of the issues in clan sitting, but first hear my first hand account. I am stating 100% how I am very biased in this case (now twice) -- since I am a part of TOP. Still, since I am the one at fault for causing the remade game, I want to prevent future instances from causing huge issues for other players here as well.[/spoiler]
[spoiler=details]Details in first game:USA 2.1 Game 17093532
I sat for Nibotha very late at night, after not accessing CC for 23 hours.
I did not communicate with nibs outside of CC during this period or have any knowledge until I played about 9-10 of my games, when I noticed the USA 2.1 game in the RED zone (time running out).
On a side note -- I actually was able to post notes at the end of my turn (a round before Nibotha were to play), then restated them 15 minutes after his move began to say it was still playable.
At 30 minutes I then played the exact move I posted 23 hours prior, which is why Nibs made the statement "what's the difference who makes the move if it's already in the chatbox."
I understand this is fallacious as the moves discernment is always in the movers discretion.
The next day, I sat for jb in the early morning, with no outside communication with him. I woke up at 5AM and he had 2 hours left on his clock, so I tried to ask in chat if he was around, then at 6AM I played the move as I needed more rest before work and frankly, I didn't want to risk missing the move.
-- I know this is small time stuff, but I could easily complain that Josko filling the chat with obscurities greatly obstructed our communications. It was a great distraction play from him because we use the chatbox solely for our communication.
-- After my first sitting instance, I researched what josko was saying. I tried to understand if we had inaccurately followed the rules, but there was nowhere stating that a player couldn't take whatever turns he wanted during his 24 hour allotment. Since we are all intelligent people here we can understand the idea to take moves at the 17-21 hour mark wherein they fall at our sleeping period in RL, while leaving our most important move for last. It just happens that Nibs ran out of time before he was going to work in his morning.
Both of my teammates may have been planning on taking their turns at 10-30 minutes left on the clock point, for all I know. However, when I logged on, I didn't think to analyze the situation that deeply. I thought it better to play it safe and take the turns.
-- jb actually would have gotten on to take his turn with 10 minutes left and I have no idea if Nibs would have made it because I do not have access to his login times.[/spoiler]
[spoiler=stipulations]Questionable stipulations to be drawn... Be warned, many ill-advised stipulations follow:
First and foremost, if you are trash player, these things will most likely be overlooked and perhaps allowed... as it may be seen as a tactical advantage to allow a trash players to break the rules.
Timeliness Guide
1. If your teammate was online 16 hours earlier -- he left notes in chat, then at the 2 hour stage calling it emergency coverage is debatable
2. If your teammate was taking other turns during the 24 time span, then at the 2 hour stage emergency coverage is debatable
3. If your teammate was taking moves in the last 3 hours, then at the 2 hour stage you may not claim an emergency (work, family emergency, power outage, etc.)
Contrarily -- If your teammate does not log on at all during the 24 hour span, then this is no problem as there is no intent to take the move
-- believe it or not, having an intent to try to take your own moves once every 24 hours is not necessary in order to play in clan games (from what I am hearing)
Strategy: When your teammate has under 2 hours on their clock and you can sit for them, but you are winning/losing the game by a large sum, then do not account sit for them.
-- By doing this, your team can argue that missing turns is an important function in following the sitting rules.
TIP: Make sure you comment that you are intentionally missing their turn because it is crucial to make sure other people realize you are not over-using account sitting privileges.
-- Also, this will keep your account sitting numbers lower for when moderators are judging your account sitting cases...
NOTE: Even sitting for games outside of clan warfare may be included in clan rulings... BEWARE[/spoiler]
[spoiler=tactical advantages]Discretionary List: Tactical Advantages
1. If it is the first round of a game, which perhaps is the most important turn, then having a teammate miss in order to not gain a tactical advantage is more ethnically correct than account sitting for your teammate.
1a. Unless it is an escalating game because when the cashes get higher these turns near the cashing period are the most important turns
1b. Unless it is in the middle of a foggy no spoil game, wherein you accurately navigate through the fog to break a bonus, then that turn can become unethical (depends on how your opponent/moderating staff feels)
2. If the sitter isn't in the game, then it's not a tactical advantage
Unless that player happens to be really good at the map,
3. If you sit for a lower ranked player who is on your team, then it is a tactical advantage
unless you or him point dumped beforehand to counterfeit this rule[/spoiler]
[spoiler=bad joke]Resulting Sitting Improvement Theory
-- Allow no communication so team games are completely in the hands of the players and not the team --
Step 1: Turn off the chat box in clan wars
Step 2: Make the board invisible unless it is your turn
Step 3: Make it completely illegal to log in to someone else's account during clan moves.
Step 4: Invest in a camera to prove that you are indeed the player making your own moves.
Step 5: Players may only take 5 minutes to make their move
Step 6: Proof of receiving no outside help required (do not forget to include exact times in the livestream of the video)
-- If any clan is found using teamwork to coordinate their moves, or supporting each other during real life issues (especially better players), we will start forcing them to send nudes to the clan department (blackmailing may ensue / reimbursement back into the clan world may be expensive).[/spoiler]
[spoiler=closing]Sorry if this comes off as trolling to many. To me, this is legitimate stuff. I understand, it can seem quite insensitive to abuse rules. I honestly have never once been told I should:
1. Look at the login times of my partner
2. Be careful not to sit for partners during decisive moves
3. Have an overwhelming clear reason as to why I was account sitting
At what stage did we decide that players are accountable to not make any mistakes in their RL vs. CC commitments?
If you guys can't see why this feels very personal / directed at our members, then I am sorry for burdening you with my efforts. I truly hope it does not affect any of you next, as I am sure you have all been there to see someone needing an account sit.[/spoiler]
-- FF
Re: Clan Sitting Rules Discussion
Keefie wrote:macken wrote:As I have said on other occasions, the rules have to:
1.- Be clear
2.- Apply them to all, equally.
If they are not clear, they create problems and uncertainty, doubts, injustices, etc.
Everything that comes behind a not clear rule, has no solid foundation, including punishment.
The rule of emergency sitter is not clear.
The term "recently" used in this rule is not clear. ("The person in question must not have been online recently taking their own turns")
Hundreds of turns are covered, but these rules are not applied correctly to all. Neither do punishments. Then? What happend here? How can apply one rule that are not clear? How can punish for do something that are not clear regulated? What happens to the hundreds of turns that are being covered and not behaved in the same way with each one?
It is necessary to clarify the terms "recently". It is necessary to clarify emergency sitter rules. While this is not done, competition is being adulterated with unequal enforcement and unfair punishment.
These endless and endless threads not help, most members will not read. And the rule remain not clear.
Until recently it was difficult to know where those rules are. Now, 4 days ago a post has been placed in a preferred place, only 4 days ago, but the rule still has the gaps I have commented. While all this has happened before without clear rules.
On a particular level I strongly disagree with what is being done here with all this in recent times. And therefore I will not renew my account. I will also stop participating in the forums and I will not read them. Now somebody will come out and send me to hell or trash, as usual. Bye
Not sure why your'e saying it was difficult to know where the rules were. They've been in the same place in announcements for as log as I can remember.
As for your last comment, I for one really hope you change your mind.
As for my words about my participation and the renew of my account, I have to say that it was automatically renewed days ago. This has happened without my knowledge.
It has happened like this, and I will leave it, it does not matter much. I will not renew it next time. My interest here has come down. I do not like to participate in injustices. Not worth it.
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FreeFalling123
- Posts: 289
- Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:46 am
- Gender: Male
- Location: Twin Cities
Re: Clan Sitting Rules Discussion
This is the definition of injustice:
-- the quality or fact of being unjust; inequity --
Let's review our specific case for the USA 2.1 game, wherein no further details were provided in our case.
Case A
Team account sits for two turns on round 1:
account sitting abuse warning / game advantage
-- Game remade / player warned
Case B
Team account sits turn 2 and 3.
Game is counted
No mention of discretionary principles.
-- the quality or fact of being unjust; inequity --
Let's review our specific case for the USA 2.1 game, wherein no further details were provided in our case.
Case A
Team account sits for two turns on round 1:
account sitting abuse warning / game advantage
-- Game remade / player warned
Case B
Team account sits turn 2 and 3.
Game is counted
No mention of discretionary principles.
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IcePack
- Multi Hunter
- Posts: 16847
- Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:42 pm
- Gender: Male
- Location: California
Re: Clan Sitting Rules Discussion
FreeFalling123 wrote:This is the definition of injustice:
-- the quality or fact of being unjust; inequity --
Let's review our specific case for the USA 2.1 game, wherein no further details were provided in our case.
Case A
Team account sits for two turns on round 1:
account sitting abuse warning / game advantage
-- Game remade / player warned
Case B
Team account sits turn 2 and 3.
Game is counted
No mention of discretionary principles.
Case A the warning was not for that game, it was for the overall level of sitting (this has been explained multiple times already).
The game remake was for the nature of the turn sitting as there was a specific violation found there in that game.
Case B should make a C&A case if you're concerned, and it will get looked at.
fac vitam incredibilem memento vivere
Knowledge Weighs Nothing, Carry All You Can
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FreeFalling123
- Posts: 289
- Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:46 am
- Gender: Male
- Location: Twin Cities
Re: Clan Sitting Rules Discussion
When I account sat for the turn I had been offline for 23 hours straight, so I do not see how it was cheating on my part... You guys are saying Nibotha had no intention of taking the turn, but I have never felt that way.
At 24 hours in Fishy's turn she was not around and at 1 hour in her turn it was taken for her without any effort from her to take her turn... I have no idea what the definition of intention to take the turn is clarified as, but this was clearly no intention to take her turn whatsoever...
When Nibotha was on at 3:30 in his turn, he was recklessly taking moves before work and asked me if I was online. I went to chat and was surprised because I had left notes the day before... so there was no reason for him to contact me. He apparently got caught up at work, maybe forgot about the turn, so at 45 minutes when I happened to notice there was not much I could do.. He sometimes has a bad habit to take his turns at like 10 minutes, but I could not risk leaving it because I was already falling asleep as it was nearing 1am in the morning... I waited a bit until 30 minute to take his turn.
There is no reason to punish us because of this instance.
If this has happened in another clan, then can people please come forward?
I have no interest in playing games if rulings like this are considered fair. There was no strategic advantage in my taking a move that was in the chatbox. Even the next move I sat for JB he could have possibly gotten to his turn in the nick of time, but I couldn't wait another hour to take his turn...
Can someone please tell me when it REALLY becomes unconstitutional to take a move for a teammate?
At 24 hours in Fishy's turn she was not around and at 1 hour in her turn it was taken for her without any effort from her to take her turn... I have no idea what the definition of intention to take the turn is clarified as, but this was clearly no intention to take her turn whatsoever...
When Nibotha was on at 3:30 in his turn, he was recklessly taking moves before work and asked me if I was online. I went to chat and was surprised because I had left notes the day before... so there was no reason for him to contact me. He apparently got caught up at work, maybe forgot about the turn, so at 45 minutes when I happened to notice there was not much I could do.. He sometimes has a bad habit to take his turns at like 10 minutes, but I could not risk leaving it because I was already falling asleep as it was nearing 1am in the morning... I waited a bit until 30 minute to take his turn.
There is no reason to punish us because of this instance.
If this has happened in another clan, then can people please come forward?
I have no interest in playing games if rulings like this are considered fair. There was no strategic advantage in my taking a move that was in the chatbox. Even the next move I sat for JB he could have possibly gotten to his turn in the nick of time, but I couldn't wait another hour to take his turn...
Can someone please tell me when it REALLY becomes unconstitutional to take a move for a teammate?
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iAmCaffeine
- Posts: 11699
- Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:38 pm
Re: Clan Sitting Rules Discussion
I mean, if all this is legit, then I don't see where the issue is. It'd be nice if someone with authority could clarify the exact details of what TOP were punished for. Also, nibotha is a good player, it's not like he wouldn't take the turn if possible, unless I'm mistaken.
Re: Clan Sitting Rules Discussion
...I used to think I was a decent flooder.. I realize I'm still a noob : )
Re: Clan Sitting Rules Discussion
-1-1-3- wrote:...I used to think I was a decent flooder.. I realize I'm still a noob : )
And I'm currently taking lessons of necroposting.
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Extreme Ways
- Posts: 1731
- Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 10:02 am
Re: Clan Sitting Rules Discussion
-1-1-3- wrote:-1-1-3- wrote:...I used to think I was a decent flooder.. I realize I'm still a noob : )
And I'm currently taking lessons of necroposting.
Practicing on the easy topics eh?
TOFU, ex-REP, ex-VDLL, ex-KoRT.
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FreeFalling123
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- Gender: Male
- Location: Twin Cities
Re: [CL8] Premier Div - S&M WIN - Final Table Added on page
nor this here...
Last edited by FreeFalling123 on Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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FreeFalling123
- Posts: 289
- Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:46 am
- Gender: Male
- Location: Twin Cities
Re: [CL8] Premier Div - S&M WIN - Final Table Added on page
I don't want this post here... thanks