[CC12] R3: FALL (17) vs S&M (29) - S&M Wins - Final 12/8/22

[mc05025]

We are on for the challenge

[josko.ri]

We are on for the challenge

We also, if only you bench GoranZ (anyway, his score in this war will be lower than 50% so he isnt really contributory to FALL performance)

[GoranZ]

Game 21954230
Round 5 niMic ran out of time.
Round 5 rousseau72 eliminated niMic from the game
As a result rousseau72 took one card less.

General Rules & Comments
Game abuse like purposely running out of time or throwing a game is prohibited. The first time a clan breaks this rule in CC12 the game must be re-made (unless other clan wants game to stand). Each subsequent violation during CC12 will result in a forfeit of the game.

We don't like the game to be re-made. We don't know if this is S&M first violation.

The rule is about purposely running out of time, which I didn't do. Ask any of my current or former teammates: sometimes I miss turns, forget to end, advance when I shouldn't, attack my teammates, etc. That's just part of my charm. Only on the rarest of occasions does it lead to them quitting the clan or even the game forever.

I guess you don't want the game re-made because you're winning anyway, which is fair enough. That said, your clan is losing quite heavily with or without it, despite the fact that you're playing against the sorts of people who forget to end their turns, which must be driving you crazy. I'm not sure it's possible to become even more obnoxious than you've been so far, but I'm sure you'll give it your very best in the weeks to come. I have to admit that after 16 years on this site I don't think I've met anyone as thoroughly unlikeable as you, and that's despite the fact that for almost two decades you made absolutely zero impression on me before I actually had to interact with you, something I greatly regret doing. I'm sure many of your clanmates secretly (or maybe not secretly) think the same. You're clearly pretty good at the game, so it's a shame you've chosen to spend your time being such a gaping asshole.

Yes your clan is soo weak that you guys need to use cheep tactics to have a chance, obviously same applies to you. And I certainly didn't insult you or call you "asshole", so I guess you are the one, not me.

I can't wait until I no longer have to think about GoranZ who plays Risk online

Good that you know me, I don't know you, nor I will.

If the staff wanted to stop the site (and the clan world) from slowly dying, they would do something about people like you.

Actually quite the opposite, I do play by the rules, for now your playing seems questionable when it comes to the rules. Its people like you that are damaging the site, not the ones like me. And Clan like the one you are part of, which is requesting for weeks of delays, than to make even more delays and forcing the enemy's clan to make last minute planning, so you guys can play when you have more free time.

[niMic]

Yawn

[JPlo64]

It has been brought to my attention that S&M may have violated a CC12 rule by purposefully running out of time in a game.
It is explicitly stated in the CC12 rules that purposefully timing out is considered game abuse in CC12.

This is being reviewed.
Regardless of the outcome, the game will not be remade because FALL does not want it to be.
If it is decided that there was a game abuse violation, than any subsequent game abuse violation will result in a forfeit of the game in question.

[Doc_Brown]

It may be relevant to this discussion that niMic also timed out in Game 21947951 a day earlier than the game in in question. However, this game is zombie spoils and unlimited forts, so running out of time had zero benefit to S&M (the spoil was automatically awarded despite timing out, and they potentially lost out on multiple forts). What this suggests to me is that niMic does evidently fail to finish turns inadvertently on occasion.

[josko.ri]

It may be relevant to this discussion that niMic also timed out in Game 21947951 a day earlier than the game in in question. However, this game is zombie spoils and unlimited forts, so running out of time had zero benefit to S&M (the spoil was automatically awarded despite timing out, and they potentially lost out on multiple forts). What this suggests to me is that niMic does evidently fail to finish turns inadvertently on occasion.

That ww2 europe game was also evidently lost at the time of running out, so definitely not playing to get some "benefit" but maybe some busier days in niMic's real life.

[josko.ri]

Yawn

Wow you invented the best possible answer to GoranZ's posts within only one word.

Let me try to be your copycat.

Yawn to GoranZ from me as well.

[niMic]

It may be relevant to this discussion that niMic also timed out in Game 21947951 a day earlier than the game in in question. However, this game is zombie spoils and unlimited forts, so running out of time had zero benefit to S&M (the spoil was automatically awarded despite timing out, and they potentially lost out on multiple forts). What this suggests to me is that niMic does evidently fail to finish turns inadvertently on occasion.

I knew there were other examples, but I didn't think they would be just a day earlier

[josko.ri]

I believe that niMic didnt run out of time intentionally.

However, even if this rule is broken, the warning should be given only if the opposing team asks for replay because then a disciplinary action was really conducted. If the opposing team does not ask for replay then no warning (nor forfeit as second step) should be conducted. Why would anyone get warning if the opposing team accepted that game as it is, without replay?

[Donelladan]

However, even if this rule is broken, the warning should be given only if the opposing team asks for replay because then a disciplinary action was really conducted. If the opposing team does not ask for replay then no warning (nor forfeit as second step) should be conducted. Why would anyone get warning if the opposing team accepted that game as it is, without replay?

Rules are pretty clear, it doesn't matter that the opposing team ask for a replay or not, if you break the rule a 2nd time you'll get a game penalty.

[fishydance]

However, even if this rule is broken, the warning should be given only if the opposing team asks for replay because then a disciplinary action was really conducted. If the opposing team does not ask for replay then no warning (nor forfeit as second step) should be conducted. Why would anyone get warning if the opposing team accepted that game as it is, without replay?

Rules are pretty clear, it doesn't matter that the opposing team ask for a replay or not, if you break the rule a 2nd time you'll get a game penalty.

Agreed that the rules are pretty clear, and it's also clear that nimic ran out of time. The issue is if there was intent, because the rule states 'purposefully', not accidentally or inadvertently. I don't believe he intentionally ran out of time.

As a person who often has to take turns in a hurry due to work commitments, I know it's very easy to get distracted and forget to actually end the turn. I'm quite sure I've done it a time or two, maybe more than I think, but I've never done it intentionally. I believe that is what happened with nimic

[iAmCaffeine]

Yawn

Wow you invented the best possible answer to GoranZ's posts within only one word.

Let me try to be your copycat.

Yawn to GoranZ from me as well.

josko even needs 7 words to yawn, not 1

typical

[mc05025]

This is the entire turn

2022-10-05 21:13:14 - niMic got bonus of 2 troops added to Base M
2022-10-05 21:13:14 - niMic got bonus of 2 troops added to Base O
2022-10-05 21:13:14 - niMic received 3 troops for 2 regions
2022-10-05 21:13:22 - niMic deployed 1 troops on Base M
2022-10-05 21:13:25 - niMic deployed 1 troops on Base M
2022-10-05 21:13:27 - niMic deployed 1 troops on Base M
2022-10-05 21:13:31 - niMic assaulted MBL 4 from Base M and conquered it from neutral player
2022-10-05 21:13:37 - niMic assaulted MBL 1 from MBL 4 and conquered it from neutral player
2022-10-05 21:13:43 - niMic assaulted AP 1 from Base O and conquered it from neutral player
2022-10-05 21:13:48 - niMic assaulted AP 2 from AP 1 and conquered it from neutral player
2022-10-05 21:14:20 - niMic reinforced AP 3 with 3 troops from AP 2
2022-10-05 21:14:24 - niMic reinforced AP 3 with 7 troops from AP 2
2022-10-05 21:14:28 - niMic reinforced AP 3 with 3 troops from AP 2
2022-10-05 21:14:31 - niMic reinforced AP 3 with 4 troops from AP 2
2022-10-05 21:14:35 - niMic reinforced MBL 4 with 5 troops from MBL 1
2022-10-05 21:14:41 - niMic reinforced MBL 1 with 2 troops from MBL 4
2022-10-05 21:14:47 - niMic reinforced MBL 4 with 1 troops from MBL 1
2022-10-05 21:14:49 - niMic reinforced AP 3 with 4 troops from MBL 4
2022-10-05 21:14:51 - niMic reinforced AP 3 with 9 troops from MBL 1
2022-10-05 22:13:14 - niMic ran out of time

2022-10-05 22:35:01 - maroshka851 got bonus of -1 troops added to AP 3
2022-10-05 22:35:01 - maroshka851 got bonus of -1 troops added to AP 5
2022-10-05 22:35:01 - maroshka851 got bonus of -1 troops added to WL 4
2022-10-05 22:35:01 - maroshka851 got bonus of 2 troops added to Base I
2022-10-05 22:35:01 - maroshka851 got bonus of 2 troops added to Base N
2022-10-05 22:35:01 - maroshka851 received 2 troops for holding 2 Antarctic Peninsula territories
2022-10-05 22:35:01 - maroshka851 received 3 troops for 5 regions
2022-10-05 22:35:05 - maroshka851 deployed 5 troops on AP 3
2022-10-05 22:35:07 - maroshka851 assaulted Ronne Shelf from AP 3 and conquered it from neutral player

niMic had the time to fort back and forth in order to mask the logs
He also had the time to make all forts needed so as all his troops to end up at AP 3 from where his teammate attacked next turn

The other game you posted had zero effect on the game (on zombie spoils I think spoil is given anyway) and the outcome (game was over). If you have a game that ran out of time that was actually harmful for you then beter post that.

[niMic]

Oh man, I'm so silly, I could have saved 30 seconds! Think of all the work I could have gotten done with all that extra time.

[josko.ri]

Usually (except for unlimited forts) the turn gets automatically ended once you make a fort. This is where nimic maybe didnt play attention every time because only in unlimited forts you still need to click "end turn" even after exhausting all forts. In other types of forts this is not the case.

[Extreme Ways]

Oh man, I'm so silly, I could have saved 30 seconds! Think of all the work I could have gotten done with all that extra time.

Nothing against you, but people here are being petty about it because Josko does the exact same thing to other people. Further in this post I'll call it "cheating" but let me be clear: I don't think you had any ill-intent and neither do I see you as a cheater, I just see the end-result - skipping a card - as a cheated play.

Sidetrack, but Josko accused Swimmerdude of breaking the rule by missing a turn in a freestyle game. From gamechat
"2022-10-08 15:20:57 - TrafalgarLaw01: I actually have been suggesting people should not skip turn with 5 spoios to get mlre cash. You are the one trying to exploit everh little advantage in ur obsession with conq.
2022-10-08 15:50:06 - josko.ri: People missing turns intentionally with 5 cards is essentially nothing diffeferent than intentionally missing a freestyle turn to get first go in next round, what swimmer did.
2022-10-08 15:50:52 - josko.ri: So of you advise people not to miss turn with 5 cards then you should also advise swimmer not to miss turn to get first go in the next round."

We've seen time and time again that Josko cares a lot about following the rule and will vehemently defend himself if he - or in this case his clan - gets accused. Examples also include the Moonchild case, Josko really is the epitome of fairplay.

Not ending turn and gaining an advantage (less spoils to the opponent) is definitely rulebreaking. It's nice that you had no ill-intent, but that is both impossible to verify and quite frankly unimportant. I don't blame GoranZ for logging this game, in case Josko accuses FALL of something else. Dare I say, "I knew you will do some shitty".

I believe that niMic didnt run out of time intentionally.

However, even if this rule is broken, the warning should be given only if the opposing team asks for replay because then a disciplinary action was really conducted. If the opposing team does not ask for replay then no warning (nor forfeit as second step) should be conducted. Why would anyone get warning if the opposing team accepted that game as it is, without replay?

You believing something is not important. TO believing something might perhaps be important. Obviously the opposing team did not accept that game as is, it accepted the game result as is. Because they won, despite that.

If I play poker against a cheater, giving him on average better cards, but still win due to a skill difference, would you not punish the known cheater because he lost?
If I play chess against a cheater but he blunders the game away once he turns off his engine, would you not punish the cheater because he lost?
If I use doping in amateur cycling but don't win any events, would you not punish the cheater because he never won?
If I use doping in pro cycling but don't win any major events, would you not punish the cheater because he never won big?
If I cheat in risk but I still lose, would you not punish the cheater because I still lost?

Obviously, if you believe in all of these cases that the cheater shouldn't be punished, then why are you calling out swimmerdude? Even if he cheated, he still lost?

Edit: It has been brought to my attention that that game hasn't ended yet. The three green "ready to play" icons confused my head, I dont play team freestyle.
In any case, if you want to classify it as a violation you need to report it to C&A, not to GD.

It is also nice how Josko prematurely conclude that this IS an swimmerdude offense, without reporting it to C&A and receiving ruling that this is offense, and without giving him a chance to defend himself

[Swimmerdude99]

Based on niMic post there is no violation even in this case. If you want to classify it as violation then you need to report it to TO.

It is also nice how GoranZ prematurely conclude that this IS an S&M offense, without reporting it to TO and receiving ruling that this is offense, and without givig us a chance to defend ourselves.

Can I get "Josko not giving someone a chance to defend themselves before prematurely concluding an offense, for 800, please"

2022-10-07 14:18:46 - josko.ri: Swimmer you just played turn in 21981753 when this game was at 15 minutes left for yourturn.
2022-10-07 14:19:29 - josko.ri: Hopefully you wont miss intentionally and break the site rules.
2022-10-07 14:54:12 - josko.ri: I knew you will do some shitty abusing the rules.

[Extreme Ways]

The thing I dislike most about all of this is that Josko knows very well what the spirit of the rule is, but argues differently because that benefits his clan.

[niMic]

Oh man, I'm so silly, I could have saved 30 seconds! Think of all the work I could have gotten done with all that extra time.

Nothing against you, but people here are being petty about it because Josko does the exact same thing to other people. Further in this post I'll call it "cheating" but let me be clear: I don't think you had any ill-intent and neither do I see you as a cheater, I just see the end-result - skipping a card - as a cheated play.

Maybe so, but skipping a card isn't a cheated play unless you do it on purpose. I've never done it on purpose, because that's stupid and lame. You can blame whoever made these rules for inserting intent into the equation, but it's there.

[xroads]

My question is, why did you fort back and forth several times for absolutely no reason?

Its odd you can take the time to do that, but dont have the time to click that one last button that says end turn.

[Extreme Ways]

Oh man, I'm so silly, I could have saved 30 seconds! Think of all the work I could have gotten done with all that extra time.

Nothing against you, but people here are being petty about it because Josko does the exact same thing to other people. Further in this post I'll call it "cheating" but let me be clear: I don't think you had any ill-intent and neither do I see you as a cheater, I just see the end-result - skipping a card - as a cheated play.

Maybe so, but skipping a card isn't a cheated play unless you do it on purpose. I've never done it on purpose, because that's stupid and lame. You can blame whoever made these rules for inserting intent into the equation, but it's there.

While "on purpose" is in the rule, it's impossible to prove that someone did something on purpose. Real life happens, shit happens. You thought the turn was done for and closed the tab - all good.

If we're going to argue about the rule:

General Rules & Comments
Game abuse like purposely running out of time or throwing a game is prohibited. The first time a clan breaks this rule in CC12 the game must be re-made (unless other clan wants game to stand). Each subsequent violation during CC12 will result in a forfeit of the game.

If purposefully running out of time is game abuse, then I argue that running out of time without intent is 'like' it. Even worse, I can argue in Josko-style and say that the purpose is to not gain a card - intent then suddenly doesn't enter into the equation anymore.

[Extreme Ways]

My question is, why did you fort back and forth several times for absolutely no reason?

Its odd you can take the time to do that, but dont have the time to click that one last button that says end turn.

I do that, or used to do that, to obfuscate log data. There is a purpose for it and shouldn't really matter in this game imo.

[josko.ri]

I am not defending nimic but I let nimic defend himself by his own words (I was not even part of that Antarctica game so how could I know what happened there), and I let the TO to make ruling whether rule is broken or not by his own.

Regardless if the rule is broken or not, I just state my opinion that when punishment has different levels (level 1,2,3 etc) then no bigger levels should be imposed before all lower levels are imposed.

If someone needs to pay 50USD for first offense but 500USD for second offense and then for first offense the offended side told that no punishment should be paid, then second time punishment remains 50USD (level 1) because that person should not go to punshment level 2 if he had never received punishment of level 1.

See example of Clan League. I dont check now, but from memory I recall that there is 6 levels of punishments forbeing late sending games, I think RA once came to the 6th level and got banned.

Then, in Clan League the punishment is imposed only if your opponents opt for punishment. It is not that at the end of Clan League everyone can retroactively count how many times have a clan been late in sending games, and if there is 6 or more infractions then the clan gets banned from the League.

How stupid would that be if so

[xroads]

My question is, why did you fort back and forth several times for absolutely no reason?

Its odd you can take the time to do that, but dont have the time to click that one last button that says end turn.

I do that, or used to do that, to obfuscate log data. There is a purpose for it and shouldn't really matter in this game imo.

I know it is done a lot, But the fact is he took his time to do all that, but then didnt have time to click that one final button to end the turn.