Conquer Club

grifftron wrote:

Evil DIMwit wrote:To summarize: Which territories start neutral now?

BKK & the HTMS

-griff

Suggest making Lopburi a neutral start as well - that way nobody can drop the 3 region bonus, and it makes Khorat Basin and Lower North a bit easier to get, which I think is fair because they are already hard to attain/hold.

So that makes 60 territs with 3 neutrals:

BKK,
HTMS Chakri Naruebet,
Lopburi

This leaves 57 territories to allocate to players.

1 other thing - please extend mountain range to separate Ranong from Surat Thani, and go a little way down Surat Thani-Phang nga border.

FarangDemon wrote:

grifftron wrote:

Evil DIMwit wrote:To summarize: Which territories start neutral now?

BKK & the HTMS

-griff

Suggest making Lopburi a neutral start as well - that way nobody can drop the 3 region bonus, and it makes Khorat Basin and Lower North a bit easier to get, which I think is fair because they are already hard to attain/hold.

So that makes 60 territs with 3 neutrals:

BKK,
HTMS Chakri Naruebet,
Lopburi

This leaves 57 territories to allocate to players.

1 other thing - please extend mountain range to separate Ranong from Surat Thani, and go a little way down Surat Thani-Phang nga border.

Good idea Farang. Above, done.

edit: i knew i had the mtn range in there before! it was a part of the mtn's that was in the inset layer so when i removed them it removed that mtn range as well... i got it back on there now Farang.

-griff

Here it is...

Anything else on bonuses or anything else? Would like to start working on graphics a bit but i don't dare until the game play is solid.

[bigimg]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4103/5064854130_35b29d60e9_b.jpg[/bigimg]


-griff

Victor Sullivan wrote:My current suggestions:
2. Make Phak Tai +8, Phak Nua +14, Phak Klang +11, and Phak Isan +14. (I can explain my reasonings if you'd like)
-Sully

Phak Isan, once obtained, is a lot easier to hold than Phak Nua, since it has fewer borders to cover.
Phak Thai definitely needs to be lowered to +8 because it has only 2 borders!!
Phak Klang is fine.

-Sully

Victor Sullivan wrote:

Victor Sullivan wrote:My current suggestions:
2. Make Phak Tai +8, Phak Nua +14, Phak Klang +11, and Phak Isan +14. (I can explain my reasonings if you'd like)
-Sully

Phak Isan, once obtained, is a lot easier to hold than Phak Nua, since it has fewer borders to cover.
Phak Thai definitely needs to be lowered to +8 because it has only 2 borders!!
Phak Klang is fine.

-Sully

Phak Tai has more then 2 boarders... you have to put in the attack at the airport in Phuket as well as the 2 attacks that come from the HTMS as well, and the boarder it shares with the West. I can work with these numbers tho. Fine with me, thanks for the input sully

-griff

lower mekong, tucked away in the corner, is possibly a +2 rather than a +3, though arguments for either can be made. the other sub-bonuses look reasonable. with neutrals on bangkok, the ship and lopburi, most of the remaining problems with the shape of the country and size of the bonus zones have been solved.

one thing on my mind: bangkok so dominates thailand in almost every way (in a fashion that doesn't happen in major western countries - not even france) that, having removed the inset, a +1 bonus hardly seems sufficient - it's not even the equal of the castle in castle lands. doing something like the aforementioned castle (which gives +2 autodeploy) or increasing the phak klang superbonus from +1 to +2 might be helpful here.

[player]victor sullivan[/player]'s spotted in advance what i was going to say about the phak tai superbonus being slightly too high. phak nua and pha isan are also high, but they're far less likely to be held.

lopburi and saraburi are usually spelt as one word by their respective provincial governments. uthai thani is two words, both with capital letters, as is udon thani. sukothai (not suko tai) is one word.

http://www.lopburi.go.th/general_lopburi.htm
http://www.saraburi.go.th/eng/
http://web.nso.go.th/en/abt/nor.pdf
http://www.dnp.go.th/parkreserve/forprint.asp?npid=50&lg=2
http://www.admincourt.go.th/AMC_ENG/Login_eng.aspx

there needs to be a key for any abbreviations such as mah.

ian.

Thanks very much for the excellent feedback!

iancanton wrote:lower mekong, tucked away in the corner, is possibly a +2 rather than a +3, though arguments for either can be made.

Yeah I was thinking about that, too. I agree we should change Lower Mekong to +2 as you suggest, as it has only 2 enemy bonus powers as neighbors, just like Deep South. This has the additional effect of making Upper Mekong relatively more powerful, which it should be as it is bigger and has 4 enemy bonus powers as neighbors. And it reduces Phak Isan bonus (details further below).

iancanton wrote:one thing on my mind: bangkok so dominates thailand in almost every way (in a fashion that doesn't happen in major western countries - not even france) that, having removed the inset, a +1 bonus hardly seems sufficient - it's not even the equal of the castle in castle lands. doing something like the aforementioned castle (which gives +2 autodeploy) or increasing the phak klang superbonus from +1 to +2 might be helpful here.

Very good point. I'd prefer to emphasize the strength of Bangkok than Phak Klang as a whole. Let's make Bangkok itself a +2 autodeploy. It may need to start with neutral 3 or 4.

Victor Sullivan wrote:Phak Isan, once obtained, is a lot easier to hold than Phak Nua, since it has fewer borders to cover.

Good point. I think we should equalize both to 13. Detailed analysis below if anyone is interested in my reasoning.

Phak Isan (17 territs) has 4 borders and Phak Neua (15 territs) has 8 borders. They both border 4 enemy bonus powers. This data on it's own would be enough to push for reduction of Isan bonus to be slightly below Neua.

However, Phak Neua can take Loei, Tak, Lopburi and Suphanburi to make a defendable 5 borders, at the expense of bordering an additional bonus power, Lower Mekong via Loei. This more defensible "greater phak neua" (not an official bonus area) would make it slightly more territs than Phak Isan, at 19 vs 17, and would be nearly the same regarding defensibility.

In light of this, I think it may be a good to equalize Phak Neua and Phak Isan bonuses. We just trimmed 1 off Phak Isan from Lower Mekong. If we trim one more away from Phak Isan bonus, it becomes 13, equal to Phak Neua.

Personally, I'd prefer to see Isan stronger than Neua as it contains more population. However I'm willing to compromise by making them equivalent out of gameplay concerns. The 2nd largest city is Chiang Mai at least, so that throws some additional credibility for a strong Phak Neua.

grifftron wrote:

Victor Sullivan wrote:Phak Thai definitely needs to be lowered to +8 because it has only 2 borders!!

Phak Tai has more then 2 boarders... you have to put in the attack at the airport in Phuket as well as the 2 attacks that come from the HTMS as well, and the boarder it shares with the West.

Yes, Phak Thai has 4 borders. Could become a 3 by taking Chakri Naruebet. I think the bonus is fair at 14 territs and 4 borders and only 3 separate powers. If it were not for the fact that there are only 3 separate powers bordering Phak Thai (BKK, West, Chakri Naruebet/East) instead of 4, I would advocate increasing its bonus to be almost as great as Phak Neua and Phak Isan. But since it has only 3 separate powers bordering it, and can reduce borders to 3 by taking the ship, I think it's fair at 9. But no less - it is 14 regions with 4 borders after all.

I like the idea of having airports, perhaps add a bonus for holding all three or simply make it an auto-deploy territory?

iancanton wrote:lower mekong, tucked away in the corner, is possibly a +2 rather than a +3, though arguments for either can be made. the other sub-bonuses look reasonable. with neutrals on bangkok, the ship and lopburi, most of the remaining problems with the shape of the country and size of the bonus zones have been solved.

one thing on my mind: bangkok so dominates thailand in almost every way (in a fashion that doesn't happen in major western countries - not even france) that, having removed the inset, a +1 bonus hardly seems sufficient - it's not even the equal of the castle in castle lands. doing something like the aforementioned castle (which gives +2 autodeploy) or increasing the phak klang superbonus from +1 to +2 might be helpful here.

[player]victor sullivan[/player]'s spotted in advance what i was going to say about the phak tai superbonus being slightly too high. phak nua and pha isan are also high, but they're far less likely to be held.

lopburi and saraburi are usually spelt as one word by their respective provincial governments. uthai thani is two words, both with capital letters, as is udon thani. sukothai (not suko tai) is one word.

http://www.lopburi.go.th/general_lopburi.htm
http://www.saraburi.go.th/eng/
http://web.nso.go.th/en/abt/nor.pdf
http://www.dnp.go.th/parkreserve/forprint.asp?npid=50&lg=2
http://www.admincourt.go.th/AMC_ENG/Login_eng.aspx

there needs to be a key for any abbreviations such as mah.

ian.

Thanks a lot ian, and thanks to VS as well, talked with Farang and made these changes on the map below.

Joodoo wrote:I like the idea of having airports, perhaps add a bonus for holding all three or simply make it an auto-deploy territory?

Not sure about auto-deploy but if others like having a small bonus for holding all 3 i don't see this becoming a prob, but just another bonus opportunity! Lets see what others think along with Farang.

Update according to ians, VS & farangs last posts.

[bigimg]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4150/5077889095_d939afbc16_b.jpg[/bigimg]

-griff

It looks like you're listing both a regular bonus value and an autodeploy value for BKK. I doubt you want it *that* powerful.

Could you make the HTMS attack routes more visible? I'm having troubles seeing them.

Evil DIMwit wrote:It looks like you're listing both a regular bonus value and an autodeploy value for BKK. I doubt you want it *that* powerful.

It was suppose to be just autodeploy, and that is what it is, i need to make it more clear i know, let me work on that.

Victor Sullivan wrote:Could you make the HTMS attack routes more visible? I'm having troubles seeing them.

Yes.

-griff

OK here it is... VS i hope those new colored connections are easier for you to see.

[bigimg]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4040/5080535771_b2975af6d9_b.jpg[/bigimg]

-griff

In the legend why not put upper north above lower north. Just so that the legend would be organized from top to bottom.

The Bison King wrote:In the legend why not put upper north above lower north. Just so that the legend would be organized from top to bottom.

Sure, yea i thought of that many times, just forgot to do it. Ill try to remember next time, its a 10 sec job haha

-griff

Thanks, griff, the HTMS attack routes look a lot better

Ok so for simplicity's sake, I see we've abandoned the auto-deploy on Bangkok.
So Bangkok is +2 and Central Plains is +2. So I think we should make Phak Klang be +5 so it is more than the sum of the parts. This should be fair.

I think it keeps things a bit simpler if the planes are just for connectivity and not a bonus. I think there are already enough small bonuses around Bangkok without having to add another.

Maybe the words "mountain pass" are unnecessary, as it is already stated that it's a one way attack and that is all that needs to be known. Just takes some words off the map.

I can't think of anything else. I'm eager to work on the xml after the gameplay gets passed.

FarangDemon wrote:Ok so for simplicity's sake, I see we've abandoned the auto-deploy on Bangkok.
So Bangkok is +2 and Central Plains is +2. So I think we should make Phak Klang be +5 so it is more than the sum of the parts. This should be fair.

I think it keeps things a bit simpler if the planes are just for connectivity and not a bonus. I think there are already enough small bonuses around Bangkok without having to add another.

Maybe the words "mountain pass" are unnecessary, as it is already stated that it's a one way attack and that is all that needs to be known. Just takes some words off the map.

I can't think of anything else. I'm eager to work on the xml after the gameplay gets passed.

Sounds good Farang. Lets wait and see if the blue boys or anyone else has anything else cookin.

but here it is with everything so far...

[bigimg]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4147/5083109215_a266040009_b.jpg[/bigimg]

-griff

I've got no more concerns with this map. Does anyone else have any?

I think Phak Nua needs to be upped to +14. It has significantly more borders than Phak Isan.

Victor Sullivan wrote:I think Phak Nua needs to be upped to +14. It has significantly more borders than Phak Isan.

Sounds reasonable to me, anyone else agree? I can change this if more agree.

-griff

Yeah, that looks fine. I doubt it even matters that much at that scale, but sure.

[bigimg]http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1242/5112880216_7d0f0bd807_b.jpg[/bigimg]

[bigimg]http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1313/5112880746_899589c11a_z.jpg[/bigimg]

griff

Well, congratulations on the anniversary of this thread, and congratulations on reaching the next step in mapmaking:

Evil DIMwit wrote:Well, congratulations on the anniversary of this thread, and congratulations on reaching the next step in mapmaking:

Very cool. I was thinking about changing the color scheme of the map, anyone have any ideas? Hit me with your best. I am ready to make this map a lot more appealing graphics wise

-griff