American gun culture

[Symmetry]

Sorry. I just flat out disagree. What do you base your statements on that guns do not protect homes? Owning a gun has an excellent chance of preventing a crime against the gun owner.

Carrying a gun increases risk of getting shot and killed

Despite the US having the highest rate of firearms-related homicide in the industrialised world, the relationship between gun culture and violence is poorly understood. A recent study found that treating violence like an infectious disease led to a dramatic fall in shootings and killings.

Overall, Branas's study found that people who carried guns were 4.5 times as likely to be shot and 4.2 times as likely to get killed compared with unarmed citizens. When the team looked at shootings in which victims had a chance to defend themselves, their odds of getting shot were even higher.

So yeah- I would say that owning a gun isn't exactly the best choice for keeping you safe.

What do you think is the best choice for keeping safe?

I'm looking back at all the shootings that you referred to in the OP, and I gotta wonder how many innocent shooting victims died with an holstered gun on their side?

Move to Japan?

Not everyone can afford the best choice.

[Pedronicus]

Until an American gun owner shoots some of the Wall St. CEO cunts, then I personally think gun ownership has been a wasted opportunity.

[PLAYER57832]

I kind of have a theory, and I won't pretend it's new or original, but I think that Americans have a problem with gun crime because of a general gun culture in the country. I'm trying to word this carefully, so I'll get the bit that can legitimately be called insulting out of the way first. Most Americans who argue for gun rights that I have spoken to directly, or over the internet, or that I have encountered in other media come across as fantasists.

They tend to describe a fantasy situation where they could defend themselves, or stop a crime, or even take part in a revolution like the American revolution.

Now I know that a lot of Americans own guns as tools, or for fun. When I lived in the US it was in a rural community, so people had guns for hunting mostly.

So yeah- do you think it's the fantasy stuff that causes the problem?

This is true, but you have to look at our history. Guns here were how we defended our homes against "Indians and other animals" (racist implication intended.. talking historical reality, not 21rst century mores). AND how we got our food.

Even today, many people (Montana, etc.) truly do live where they actually need guns or where guns are so close to useful as to be hard to distinguish from needs. Even in places like PA, our freezer is full of venison (not now, of course.. its close to the new hunting season). Sure, we can go to the store and buy it, but venison is a big part of what folks here eat. And, well, we truly do have people who poach because else they would not have food on their table (note, I don't excuse that.. there are legal ways to get food here, but it is just what happens here).

In Europe, there is no such culture. Even hunting was largely for the wealthy. Stories of taking the "king's game" are rife in history. There were no public lands, they were all "owned" by nobility. It is a major point that has always set us apart, intentionally, from Europe. We are moving more and more to the point of just hunting in groomed game lands, but even so... its not necessarily just for the "wealthy". Sure, there are resorts, guide services, etc that cater to those folks, but some of is it accessable to fairly middle class individuals. Anyone living near a game land or National forest (Labels and rules in each state vary, but National Forests and Bureau of Land Management lands are almost always open to hunting)

In the cities, the picture is a bit like Europe, but again, with differences. Part of the whole "ghetto" and gang culture has to do with racism, and young men who had no opportunities, had to literally fight.

So, in other words, the US has more of a gun culture because the US was built up with the idea of guns being a need. That, and it is pretty strongly part of our constitution... You know, that whole "fending of the monarchy" bit.

[Phatscotty]

.... Overall, we are becoming more and more a society that justifies what can be taken from people. I think these thing by far outweigh the culture of guns.

Not going to get into the gun aspect of this thread, I've done that enough times - But this quote needed some attention.

We are becoming a society that justifies what can be taken from people? Scotty, Scotty, Scotty... we have been like that right from the start of industrial civilisation, even before.

European colonies have justified for centuries the apropriation of indigenous lands and resources - Do not start pretending that it is just starting now.

Private property is inherently violent - That property was taken from people well before you built your house and armed yourself with a shotgun.

You reap what you sow - You are worried about 'your' land and property being taken, yet that is exactly what your ancestors (and mine in Australia, and others elsewhere in the colonial world) have done for centuries.

There is a difference between what I am talking about and what you are talking about. I am talking about, as per the thread, shootings which consist of robberies, jealous lovers, psychos, gang bangers etc. You are talking about spoils of wars going to the winners. I never for one second said or thought that conquering lands or appropriation was a new thing. What in the world gave you that impression?

I am not worried at all about my land or property being taken. Jakey Jakey Jakey, I'll give you 1 guess why that is.

[PLAYER57832]

.... Overall, we are becoming more and more a society that justifies what can be taken from people. I think these thing by far outweigh the culture of guns.

Not going to get into the gun aspect of this thread, I've done that enough times - But this quote needed some attention.

We are becoming a society that justifies what can be taken from people? Scotty, Scotty, Scotty... we have been like that right from the start of industrial civilisation, even before.

European colonies have justified for centuries the apropriation of indigenous lands and resources - Do not start pretending that it is just starting now.

Private property is inherently violent - That property was taken from people well before you built your house and armed yourself with a shotgun.

You reap what you sow - You are worried about 'your' land and property being taken, yet that is exactly what your ancestors (and mine in Australia, and others elsewhere in the colonial world) have done for centuries.

There is a difference between what I am talking about and what you are talking about. I am talking about, as per the thread, shootings which consist of robberies, jealous lovers, psychos, gang bangers etc. You are talking about spoils of wars going to the winners. I never for one second said or thought that conquering lands or appropriation was a new thing. What in the world gave you that impression?

I am not worried at all about my land or property being taken. Jakey Jakey Jakey, I'll give you 1 guess why that is.

Because you work for the institutions that would take it.

[jgordon1111]

Bottom line our constitution guarantee's us the right to bear arms.The founding Fathers put it in there because in the old country,The monarchy kept the general population under control by not allowing them to own fire arms,thus not much chance of an uprising taking the king out of office so to speak. It was originally intended as a defense for the common person against all enemies foreign and domestic,and to show the citizens of a newly formed nation that their new government were not all about putting a foot on the neck of its citizens.Sadly this is no longer true,mostly the people with guns are the wrong people.But I personally believe everyone has the right to own a fire arm,But I also believe if you use it illegally,the punishment should be so severe it would never happen again.And would send a message to all others not to do it.I know what i have said here is not going to sit well with some of you but it is my opinion. I stopped being a law enforcement officer,because to many of the wrong people keep going away free for various reasons. If a law was allowed to pass revoking the right to bear arms,the only people likely to give them up would be the honest one's.And that is a grave mistake,because the criminal's would then step up their crimes knowing no one could defend against them.

[Borderdawg]

I kind of have a theory, and I won't pretend it's new or original, but I think that Americans have a problem with gun crime because of a general gun culture in the country. I'm trying to word this carefully, so I'll get the bit that can legitimately be called insulting out of the way first. Most Americans who argue for gun rights that I have spoken to directly, or over the internet, or that I have encountered in other media come across as fantasists.

They tend to describe a fantasy situation where they could defend themselves, or stop a crime, or even take part in a revolution like the American revolution.

Now I know that a lot of Americans own guns as tools, or for fun. When I lived in the US it was in a rural community, so people had guns for hunting mostly.

So yeah- do you think it's the fantasy stuff that causes the problem?

??? So, trying to visualize your reaction to a situation involving firearms and violence is fantasy,
but to do the same regarding situations involving automobiles/motorcycles/power tools is encouraged for reasons of safety? And why does "American Gun Culture" frighten you so? It really doesn't concern you! If carrying a firearm leads to getting shot, I must be one of the lucky ones. I've carried for 30+ years, and haven't been shot yet!! (just out of curiosity, was that rural community in upstate New York?)

[Symmetry]

I kind of have a theory, and I won't pretend it's new or original, but I think that Americans have a problem with gun crime because of a general gun culture in the country. I'm trying to word this carefully, so I'll get the bit that can legitimately be called insulting out of the way first. Most Americans who argue for gun rights that I have spoken to directly, or over the internet, or that I have encountered in other media come across as fantasists.

They tend to describe a fantasy situation where they could defend themselves, or stop a crime, or even take part in a revolution like the American revolution.

Now I know that a lot of Americans own guns as tools, or for fun. When I lived in the US it was in a rural community, so people had guns for hunting mostly.

So yeah- do you think it's the fantasy stuff that causes the problem?

??? So, trying to visualize your reaction to a situation involving firearms and violence is fantasy,
but to do the same regarding situations involving automobiles/motorcycles/power tools is encouraged for reasons of safety? And why does "American Gun Culture" frighten you so? It really doesn't concern you! If carrying a firearm leads to getting shot, I must be one of the lucky ones. I've carried for 30+ years, and haven't been shot yet!! (just out of curiosity, was that rural community in upstate New York?)

How many crimes have you stopped? How many homes have you defended? How many tyrannies overthrown?

How many of those have you fantasised about doing with your gun?

[Woodruff]

I'm looking back at all the shootings that you referred to in the OP, and I gotta wonder how many innocent shooting victims died with an holstered gun on their side?

I've already explained to you several times why "having a holstered gun on their side" will make them MORE LIKELY to die, rather than make them more likely to survive. You ignored it then, so why would you think anyone believes you won't ignore it now?

For what it's worth, I staunchly support the Second Amendment. I don't support morons like you, though. BigBallinStalin has you nailed to a T...T for Troll.

[PLAYER57832]

I'm looking back at all the shootings that you referred to in the OP, and I gotta wonder how many innocent shooting victims died with an holstered gun on their side?

I've already explained to you several times why "having a holstered gun on their side" will make them MORE LIKELY to die, rather than make them more likely to survive. You ignored it then, so why would you think anyone believes you won't ignore it now?

For what it's worth, I staunchly support the Second Amendment. I don't support morons like you, though.

Agreed!

And the problem is that morons are the REAL threat to the rest of us, because average people are able to SEE that the whole idea of needing a concealed pistol for defense on the city streets is idiotic.. and therefore dismiss those who put forward those arguments (aka the NRA) as "not sensible". It is those people who put our ability to hold guns at risk, just like it is those who hunt irresponsibly who put the ability of sane people to hunt at risk.

[HapSmo19]

I kind of have a theory, and I won't pretend it's new or original, but I think that Americans have a problem with gun crime because of a general gun culture in the country. I'm trying to word this carefully, so I'll get the bit that can legitimately be called insulting out of the way first. Most Americans who argue for gun rights that I have spoken to directly, or over the internet, or that I have encountered in other media come across as fantasists.

They tend to describe a fantasy situation where they could defend themselves, or stop a crime, or even take part in a revolution like the American revolution.

Now I know that a lot of Americans own guns as tools, or for fun. When I lived in the US it was in a rural community, so people had guns for hunting mostly.

So yeah- do you think it's the fantasy stuff that causes the problem?

??? So, trying to visualize your reaction to a situation involving firearms and violence is fantasy,
but to do the same regarding situations involving automobiles/motorcycles/power tools is encouraged for reasons of safety? And why does "American Gun Culture" frighten you so? It really doesn't concern you! If carrying a firearm leads to getting shot, I must be one of the lucky ones. I've carried for 30+ years, and haven't been shot yet!! (just out of curiosity, was that rural community in upstate New York?)

How many crimes have you stopped? How many homes have you defended? How many tyrannies overthrown?

How many of those have you fantasised about doing with your gun?

I think we can all agree that this is a classic case of projecting, right?

[Army of GOD]

I kind of have a theory, and I won't pretend it's new or original, but I think that Americans have a problem with gun crime because of a general gun culture in the country. I'm trying to word this carefully, so I'll get the bit that can legitimately be called insulting out of the way first. Most Americans who argue for gun rights that I have spoken to directly, or over the internet, or that I have encountered in other media come across as fantasists.

They tend to describe a fantasy situation where they could defend themselves, or stop a crime, or even take part in a revolution like the American revolution.

Now I know that a lot of Americans own guns as tools, or for fun. When I lived in the US it was in a rural community, so people had guns for hunting mostly.

So yeah- do you think it's the fantasy stuff that causes the problem?

I guess, but your diction makes it sound like you're right and they're wrong.

I have no clue where I stand on gun control. Both sides, like most debates, are annoying as f*ck. But if I had to lean one way or the other, I'd lean in favor of less gun control.

Europe is not the United States. The US has a much larger diversity than Europe and A LOT more social conflicts, so I find it very inappropriate for Europeans to discuss gun stats with the US.

But the culture of the US is to defend your house if you're being robbed, or held up, or whatever. Whether it's barbaric or more dangerous or what, I am forced to support the crazies.

How's that working out?

I'm not sure?

I don't care if America's lack of gun control laws make it safer or more dangerous. I feel like it's the US's duty as a country that prides itself on freedom to have laxed gun laws. People do have the opportunity to leave if they don't want to, ya know. And I don't own a gun (my dad does...a .22 bolt-action rifle, I've shot it like 5 times maybe) nor do I plan on ever owning a gun.

[Baron Von PWN]

The US has a much larger diversity than Europe and A LOT more social conflicts,.

lol

[Phatscotty]

Gentlemen, we are at an impasse. I have presented articles and evidence. They have been labelled rubbish, or worse, British. So I am at a loss as to why gun crime is so high in the US compared to similar countries, even those with similar levels of gun onwership if it is not American culture at play.

I appreciate that a lot of people, Saxi, Scotty, don't like an outsider talking about this.

I never labeled your evidence rubbish, I stated the study runs completely the opposite of my own experiences

[Phatscotty]

I kind of have a theory, and I won't pretend it's new or original, but I think that Americans have a problem with gun crime because of a general gun culture in the country. I'm trying to word this carefully, so I'll get the bit that can legitimately be called insulting out of the way first. Most Americans who argue for gun rights that I have spoken to directly, or over the internet, or that I have encountered in other media come across as fantasists.

They tend to describe a fantasy situation where they could defend themselves, or stop a crime, or even take part in a revolution like the American revolution.

Now I know that a lot of Americans own guns as tools, or for fun. When I lived in the US it was in a rural community, so people had guns for hunting mostly.

So yeah- do you think it's the fantasy stuff that causes the problem?

I guess, but your diction makes it sound like you're right and they're wrong.


I have no clue where I stand on gun control. Both sides, like most debates, are annoying as f*ck. But if I had to lean one way or the other, I'd lean in favor of less gun control.

Europe is not the United States. The US has a much larger diversity than Europe and A LOT more social conflicts, so I find it very inappropriate for Europeans to discuss gun stats with the US.

But the culture of the US is to defend your house if you're being robbed, or held up, or whatever. Whether it's barbaric or more dangerous or what, I am forced to support the crazies.

How's that working out?

I'm not sure?

I don't care if America's lack of gun control laws make it safer or more dangerous. I feel like it's the US's duty as a country that prides itself on freedom to have laxed gun laws. People do have the opportunity to leave if they don't want to, ya know. And I don't own a gun (my dad does...a .22 bolt-action rifle, I've shot it like 5 times maybe) nor do I plan on ever owning a gun.

That's what people always say until they become a victim.

If you don't want to carry a gun, you can always hire a private security guard to follow you around 24-7 at 65k/year.

[Woodruff]

I kind of have a theory, and I won't pretend it's new or original, but I think that Americans have a problem with gun crime because of a general gun culture in the country. I'm trying to word this carefully, so I'll get the bit that can legitimately be called insulting out of the way first. Most Americans who argue for gun rights that I have spoken to directly, or over the internet, or that I have encountered in other media come across as fantasists.

They tend to describe a fantasy situation where they could defend themselves, or stop a crime, or even take part in a revolution like the American revolution.

Now I know that a lot of Americans own guns as tools, or for fun. When I lived in the US it was in a rural community, so people had guns for hunting mostly.

So yeah- do you think it's the fantasy stuff that causes the problem?

I guess, but your diction makes it sound like you're right and they're wrong.


I have no clue where I stand on gun control. Both sides, like most debates, are annoying as f*ck. But if I had to lean one way or the other, I'd lean in favor of less gun control.

Europe is not the United States. The US has a much larger diversity than Europe and A LOT more social conflicts, so I find it very inappropriate for Europeans to discuss gun stats with the US.

But the culture of the US is to defend your house if you're being robbed, or held up, or whatever. Whether it's barbaric or more dangerous or what, I am forced to support the crazies.

How's that working out?

I'm not sure?

I don't care if America's lack of gun control laws make it safer or more dangerous. I feel like it's the US's duty as a country that prides itself on freedom to have laxed gun laws. People do have the opportunity to leave if they don't want to, ya know. And I don't own a gun (my dad does...a .22 bolt-action rifle, I've shot it like 5 times maybe) nor do I plan on ever owning a gun.

That's what people always say until they become a victim.

If you don't want to carry a gun, you can always hire a private security guard to follow you around 24-7 at 65k/year.

Or take that unrealistic step of being aware of your own fucking surroundings.

[PLAYER57832]

Unless you are THE number one quick draw...a nd I don't mean "State Fair", NRA competition quick draw, either, I mean real life situations, against real people... you will lose.

I have seen this demonstrated many times in REAL self-defense classes. The kind where they take women aside and say "don't tell ANYONE this....". And, well.... the techniques do work, but no, I am not going to explain. (Except, as Woodruff noted, be aware of your surroundings, including avoiding areas that are very risky and do be self-assured)

[Symmetry]

Unless you are THE number one quick draw...a nd I don't mean "State Fair", NRA competition quick draw, either, I mean real life situations, against real people... you will lose.

I have seen this demonstrated many times in REAL self-defense classes. The kind where they take women aside and say "don't tell ANYONE this....". And, well.... the techniques do work, but no, I am not going to explain. (Except, as Woodruff noted, be aware of your surroundings, including avoiding areas that are very risky and do be self-assured)

I think this is kind of what I was trying to get at- that the way that people think about guns in the US is kind of the problem. Plenty of other countries own firearms at similar rates to the US, not so many talk about them as ways of improving personal safety or even as a freedom issue in the way the US does. I think that saxi pointed out a while ago that the UK started to have big problems with knife crime when some parts of the UK developed a youth culture that you needed to carry a knife to protect yourself.

[PLAYER57832]

Unless you are THE number one quick draw...a nd I don't mean "State Fair", NRA competition quick draw, either, I mean real life situations, against real people... you will lose.

I have seen this demonstrated many times in REAL self-defense classes. The kind where they take women aside and say "don't tell ANYONE this....". And, well.... the techniques do work, but no, I am not going to explain. (Except, as Woodruff noted, be aware of your surroundings, including avoiding areas that are very risky and do be self-assured)

I think this is kind of what I was trying to get at- that the way that people think about guns in the US is kind of the problem. Plenty of other countries own firearms at similar rates to the US, not so many talk about them as ways of improving personal safety or even as a freedom issue in the way the US does. I think that saxi pointed out a while ago that the UK started to have big problems with knife crime when some parts of the UK developed a youth culture that you needed to carry a knife to protect yourself.

Except this is a distortion, also. MOST people outside of law enforcement professions who have guns use them for recreation purposes, not defense.

[Phatscotty]

Liberals and Europeans discussing guns in America...this is getting good! I am using my fantasy mod powers to move this thread into the United Nations forum and merge it with the "Attacking America's Constitution" sticky thread.

[Symmetry]

Unless you are THE number one quick draw...a nd I don't mean "State Fair", NRA competition quick draw, either, I mean real life situations, against real people... you will lose.

I have seen this demonstrated many times in REAL self-defense classes. The kind where they take women aside and say "don't tell ANYONE this....". And, well.... the techniques do work, but no, I am not going to explain. (Except, as Woodruff noted, be aware of your surroundings, including avoiding areas that are very risky and do be self-assured)

I think this is kind of what I was trying to get at- that the way that people think about guns in the US is kind of the problem. Plenty of other countries own firearms at similar rates to the US, not so many talk about them as ways of improving personal safety or even as a freedom issue in the way the US does. I think that saxi pointed out a while ago that the UK started to have big problems with knife crime when some parts of the UK developed a youth culture that you needed to carry a knife to protect yourself.

Except this is a distortion, also. MOST people outside of law enforcement professions who have guns use them for recreation purposes, not defense.

Indeed, but most of the arguments about gun control in the US tend to focus on defense rather than recreational use.

[Nobunaga]

... In the United States, in cities with populations in excess of 50,000, the average response time to 9-11 calls is 9 minutes.

... That is the primary reason why I own guns.

... (And in this state, you can shoot a home invader dead without concern of later legal difficulties).

...

[Phatscotty]

Unless you are THE number one quick draw...a nd I don't mean "State Fair", NRA competition quick draw, either, I mean real life situations, against real people... you will lose.

I have seen this demonstrated many times in REAL self-defense classes. The kind where they take women aside and say "don't tell ANYONE this....". And, well.... the techniques do work, but no, I am not going to explain. (Except, as Woodruff noted, be aware of your surroundings, including avoiding areas that are very risky and do be self-assured)

I think this is kind of what I was trying to get at- that the way that people think about guns in the US is kind of the problem. Plenty of other countries own firearms at similar rates to the US, not so many talk about them as ways of improving personal safety or even as a freedom issue in the way the US does. I think that saxi pointed out a while ago that the UK started to have big problems with knife crime when some parts of the UK developed a youth culture that you needed to carry a knife to protect yourself.

Except this is a distortion, also. MOST people outside of law enforcement professions who have guns use them for recreation purposes, not defense.

Indeed, but most of the arguments about gun control in the US tend to focus on defense rather than recreational use.

"Recreational" describes leisure hunting like it describes cruising in a car just for fun.

Guns = personal defense the way automobiles = getting to work

[KoolBak]

Gun culture........there are as many cultures as there are types of people....you simply cannot generalize. In my 40 years of gun ownership / use, it has been purely recreational as I've never had to defend a home from a crazed invader. I am ready at every moment to do so, but I hope they stay recreational.....

[Phatscotty]

Gun culture........there are as many cultures as there are types of people....you simply cannot generalize. In my 40 years of gun ownership / use, it has been purely recreational as I've never had to defend a home from a crazed invader. I am ready at every moment to do so, but I hope they stay recreational.....

That reminded me of this