Did Jesus Really Sacrifice All That Much?

[natty dread]

Did Jesus really exist all that much?

[BigBallinStalin]

Would you say Jesus is greedy for choosing a more profitable life in Heaven instead of staying on Earth and helping people directly?

[natty dread]

Would you say santa claus is racist for not giving as much gifts to the african children as he gives to the western ones?

[Phatscotty]

But just my opinion not meant to belittle or antagonize anyone of faith. Your faith is what keeps you going and raises you up hold on to it.

[Phatscotty]

Would you say santa claus is racist for not giving as much gifts to the african children as he gives to the western ones?

OMG. You really can not help it, can you?

[BigBallinStalin]

"into your hands i commit my spirit"

if he could raise himself from the dead, then why would he commit his spirit to anybody?

He respects the law of contracts. It's good to have these things in verbal form, then written down centuries later!

"In no other case is the interval of time between the composition of the book and the date of the earliest extant manuscripts so short as in that of the New Testament. The books of the New Testament were written in the latter part of the first century; the earliest extant manuscripts (trifling scraps excepted) are of the fourth century--say from 250 to 300 years later. This may sound a considerable interval, but it is nothing to that which parts most of the great classical authors from their earliest manuscripts. We believe that we have in all essentials an accurate text of the seven extant plays of Sophocles; yet the earliest substantial manuscript upon which it is based was written more than 1400 years after the poet's death."
-Sir Frederic G. Kenyon, former director and principal librarian of the British Museum

"To be skeptical of the resultant text of the New Testament books is to allow all of classical antiquity to slip into obscurity, for no documents of the ancient period are as well attested bibliographically as the New Testament."
-John Warwick Montgomery, who holds 11 degrees and has written 235 works

It's Good Friday tomorrow and it's got me thinking. Since Jesus had the power to raise himself from the dead, it's not really a sacrifice for him to die.

What do you guys think?

Let me get this straight: you're saying that someone who's "living the life" with not a care in the world, completely free from pain, with every wish fulfilled, the most powerful person in the universe with millions of angels doing his bidding; that person taking the time to become one of the humblest forms of his creation, carrying out good works (feeding the hungry, healing the sick, raising the dead) throughout his time on earth, accepting (for the sake of you and me) the unjust punishment of one of the worst, most painfully-prolonged executions conceivable at the time carried out by the very people he came to save; you're saying that action isn't a sacrifice??

Too bad he didn't stick around long enough!

But hey, if the other divinely inspired accounts are true, then we got Jesus v2.0, Jesus v3.0, etc. in the form of Muhammed, St. Joan of Arc, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Hong Xiuquan (the younger brother of Christ), etc., etc.!

Examine the facts. The choice isn't necessarily between all religions being right or all religions being wrong.

Would you say that it is impossible to evaluate unfalsifiable "facts"?

FACT 1: Jesus is the son of God. Source: Jesus himself, as quoted from the Bible, and like other people said so too.

FACT 2: Muhammed is the true prophet of God's latest work. All that stuff before the Quran is incorrect; here's the new and correct version. Source: the Quran, which ultimately is by God.

FACT 3: St. Joan of Arc was directly talking to God. Source: She said so--just like Jesus did! Shucks, this is difficult.

FACT 4: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad starts new offshoot of Islam. Source: He said so--just like Jesus did! Even has his own fancy book!

FACT 5: Joel Osteen--what a great guy! Apparently, he's in touch with God on the direct caller's hotline! I've sent him checks galore because like he says he's in touch with Gawd and all that. SOURCE: Every Day is Friday, Bitches! (his book)

etc., etc,. etc.

Even if guys like Osteen can simply use that "divinely inspired" excuse, it would be impossible to evaluate the fact. You can't verify it, nor disprove it. It's a dilemma which many religiosos ignore--like daddy1gringo. It just annoys them, but they'll settle for religion A because... err.... it's an arbitrary decision, and that's about it. 'It just feels right. Ever read the Quran/Bible/Torah/Everyday Is Friday, Bitches? It's great; therefore, join us.'

[puppydog85]

Fact 6: ballin says it ain't so, so it ain't.
Never mind that he can't prove anything himself

[pmchugh]

Relative to human sacrifice then yes but in godly terms he sacrificed roughly 0% of his life time, so not really.

[chang50]

It's Good Friday tomorrow and it's got me thinking. Since Jesus had the power to raise himself from the dead, it's not really a sacrifice for him to die.

What do you guys think?

Well if he was what I reckon he was,an apopolyptic,messianic,Jewish preacher,not divine,then it was the sacrifice of a tragically deluded man who suffered an incredibly painful death.

[Haggis_McMutton]

Fact 6: ballin says it ain't so, so it ain't.
Never mind that he can't prove anything himself

When you can prove that the hundreds of gods you don't believe in are imaginary, then I'll prove that the one you do believe in is also imaginary.

[oVo]

When you can prove that the hundreds of gods you don't believe in are imaginary, then I'll prove that the one you do believe in is also imaginary.

Don't make promises you can't keep. There are many things in this World
that can't be explained.

Jesus was a carpenter.

__ believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth and in Jesus Christ his only son, our Lord. Who was conceived of the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, crucified dead and buried. He descended into hell. The third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended into Heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.

[BigBallinStalin]

Fact 6: puppydog85 doesn't know what unfalsiable means

Oh, haha! Here ya go! It's failure to meet this condition: falsifiability.



EDIT: THE FLYING GNOMES FOILED MY LINK.

[BigBallinStalin]

When you can prove that the hundreds of gods you don't believe in are imaginary, then I'll prove that the one you do believe in is also imaginary.

Don't make promises you can't keep. There are many things in this World
that can't be explained.

Jesus was a carpenter.

__ believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth and in Jesus Christ his only son, our Lord. Who was conceived of the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, crucified dead and buried. He descended into hell. The third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended into Heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.

Can you sacrifice that bottom paragraph so that it can be resurrected in a brighter color?

[Haggis_McMutton]

When you can prove that the hundreds of gods you don't believe in are imaginary, then I'll prove that the one you do believe in is also imaginary.

Don't make promises you can't keep. There are many things in this World
that can't be explained.

Since proving a god doesn't exist is pretty much inconceivable under any semblance of modern reason/logic/thinking, I think I'm pretty safe making that promise.

[Ray Rider]

Would you say that it is impossible to evaluate unfalsifiable "facts"?

FACT 1: Jesus is the son of God. Source: Jesus himself, as quoted from the Bible, and like other people said so too.

FACT 2: Muhammed is the true prophet of God's latest work. All that stuff before the Quran is incorrect; here's the new and correct version. Source: the Quran, which ultimately is by God.

FACT 3: St. Joan of Arc was directly talking to God. Source: She said so--just like Jesus did! Shucks, this is difficult.

FACT 4: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad starts new offshoot of Islam. Source: He said so--just like Jesus did! Even has his own fancy book!

FACT 5: Joel Osteen--what a great guy! Apparently, he's in touch with God on the direct caller's hotline! I've sent him checks galore because like he says he's in touch with Gawd and all that. SOURCE: Every Day is Friday, Bitches! (his book)

etc., etc,. etc.

Even if guys like Osteen can simply use that "divinely inspired" excuse, it would be impossible to evaluate the fact. You can't verify it, nor disprove it. It's a dilemma which many religiosos ignore--like daddy1gringo. It just annoys them, but they'll settle for religion A because... err.... it's an arbitrary decision, and that's about it. 'It just feels right. Ever read the Quran/Bible/Torah/Everyday Is Friday, Bitches? It's great; therefore, join us.'

An arbitrary decision?? If you're serious about the matter, read and study what they said and how the records/accounts of what they said have been passed on to us. How did they answer some of the fundamental questions which form every human's philosophy in life: Who are we, where did we come from, where are we going, why are we here, how should we live? What did these people do throughout their lives to show that they were serious about what they believed? From an objective standpoint, what type of a goal did these people appear to be pursuing in their lives and teaching? Is it a selfish goal? Did their lives have a positive or negative impact on the world around them? Is their teaching practical and applicable to the real world today (especially if these teachings have been around a long time)? In the face of extreme difficulties or trials, how did these people or their followers respond? Did they espouse values which are worth following? Take their teachings back to the basics and look at what effect it has had on the world; was that positive or negative? Do we know that their writings which we can read today are accurate? How were they preserved over the centuries? Are they historically reliable? If these people are dead, was there multiple witnesses to what it was they said? Do the accounts line up? Do they appear contrived or authentic? Are the witnesses reliable? Were they deceived? What was the effect on those immediate followers? What was their purpose in writing down those events? When they reference historical people and events, is it accurate? Does it line up with archaeology? If these people claimed to be God or from God, what evidence did they provide? Did their lives fulfil ancient prophecies? Did they make prophecies which were later fulfilled? Did they perform any miracles? Was their life unusual in a way which set them apart from any other human? What kind of effect do these people's teachings have on people you know? Go talk to the people who endorse and spread these teachings; what are they like? Can evidence be seen from people whose lives have been drastically changed through following this belief? Talk to people on their deathbeds who have been following these teachings their entire lives; do they have regrets? If so, what are they? Do their beliefs change when staring death in the face? This is just the beginning of a myriad of questions which may be asked (or should be asked) of any religion, philosophy, worldview, or belief system. These are matters which affect your entire life, and as most of the world believes, will also affect your life after death; therefore it is not something to be taken lightly.

"Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught."
-Luke, 1st century physician

[Night Strike]

Would you say Jesus is greedy for choosing a more profitable life in Heaven instead of staying on Earth and helping people directly?

I'd say being a perfect person but dying and taking on the sins of everyone throughout history is quite giving.

[BigBallinStalin]

Would you say Jesus is greedy for choosing a more profitable life in Heaven instead of staying on Earth and helping people directly?

I'd say being a perfect person but dying and taking on the sins of everyone throughout history is quite giving.

He's God; surely, there's an lower cost way to take everyone's sins (yet leave them with "original" sin) and still remain directly in the world to help others. So, why didn't that happen?

[BigBallinStalin]

Would you say that it is impossible to evaluate unfalsifiable "facts"?

FACT 1: Jesus is the son of God. Source: Jesus himself, as quoted from the Bible, and like other people said so too.

FACT 2: Muhammed is the true prophet of God's latest work. All that stuff before the Quran is incorrect; here's the new and correct version. Source: the Quran, which ultimately is by God.

FACT 3: St. Joan of Arc was directly talking to God. Source: She said so--just like Jesus did! Shucks, this is difficult.

FACT 4: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad starts new offshoot of Islam. Source: He said so--just like Jesus did! Even has his own fancy book!

FACT 5: Joel Osteen--what a great guy! Apparently, he's in touch with God on the direct caller's hotline! I've sent him checks galore because like he says he's in touch with Gawd and all that. SOURCE: Every Day is Friday, Bitches! (his book)

etc., etc,. etc.

Even if guys like Osteen can simply use that "divinely inspired" excuse, it would be impossible to evaluate the fact. You can't verify it, nor disprove it. It's a dilemma which many religiosos ignore--like daddy1gringo. It just annoys them, but they'll settle for religion A because... err.... it's an arbitrary decision, and that's about it. 'It just feels right. Ever read the Quran/Bible/Torah/Everyday Is Friday, Bitches? It's great; therefore, join us.'

An arbitrary decision?? If you're serious about the matter, read and study what they said and how the records/accounts of what they said have been passed on to us. How did they answer some of the fundamental questions which form every human's philosophy in life: Who are we, where did we come from, where are we going, why are we here, how should we live? What did these people do throughout their lives to show that they were serious about what they believed? From an objective standpoint, what type of a goal did these people appear to be pursuing in their lives and teaching? Is it a selfish goal? Did their lives have a positive or negative impact on the world around them? Is their teaching practical and applicable to the real world today (especially if these teachings have been around a long time)? In the face of extreme difficulties or trials, how did these people or their followers respond? Did they espouse values which are worth following? Take their teachings back to the basics and look at what effect it has had on the world; was that positive or negative? Do we know that their writings which we can read today are accurate? How were they preserved over the centuries? Are they historically reliable? If these people are dead, was there multiple witnesses to what it was they said? Do the accounts line up? Do they appear contrived or authentic? Are the witnesses reliable? Were they deceived? What was the effect on those immediate followers? What was their purpose in writing down those events? When they reference historical people and events, is it accurate? Does it line up with archaeology? If these people claimed to be God or from God, what evidence did they provide? Did their lives fulfil ancient prophecies? Did they make prophecies which were later fulfilled? Did they perform any miracles? Was their life unusual in a way which set them apart from any other human? What kind of effect do these people's teachings have on people you know? Go talk to the people who endorse and spread these teachings; what are they like? Can evidence be seen from people whose lives have been drastically changed through following this belief? Talk to people on their deathbeds who have been following these teachings their entire lives; do they have regrets? If so, what are they? Do their beliefs change when staring death in the face? This is just the beginning of a myriad of questions which may be asked (or should be asked) of any religion, philosophy, worldview, or belief system. These are matters which affect your entire life, and as most of the world believes, will also affect your life after death; therefore it is not something to be taken lightly.

"Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught."
-Luke, 1st century physician

And religion A can provide some of those answers. But so can other religions, so why choose religion A?

[Night Strike]

Would you say Jesus is greedy for choosing a more profitable life in Heaven instead of staying on Earth and helping people directly?

I'd say being a perfect person but dying and taking on the sins of everyone throughout history is quite giving.

He's God; surely, there's an lower cost way to take everyone's sins (yet leave them with "original" sin) and still remain directly in the world to help others. So, why didn't that happen?

Because the only way to pay for sin is by death.

[ManBungalow]

Would you say Jesus is greedy for choosing a more profitable life in Heaven instead of staying on Earth and helping people directly?

I'd say being a perfect person but dying and taking on the sins of everyone throughout history is quite giving.

He's God; surely, there's an lower cost way to take everyone's sins (yet leave them with "original" sin) and still remain directly in the world to help others. So, why didn't that happen?

Because the only way to pay for sin is by death.

If I were to sin once (by taking pride in something I'd done, for example), what's to stop me from sinning more and more after such an incident ?
After being condemned to death for one sin, the thread of death loses its edge.

Besides, I'm sure the all-powerful Jesus can take one more sin for the team.

[Night Strike]

Would you say Jesus is greedy for choosing a more profitable life in Heaven instead of staying on Earth and helping people directly?

I'd say being a perfect person but dying and taking on the sins of everyone throughout history is quite giving.

He's God; surely, there's an lower cost way to take everyone's sins (yet leave them with "original" sin) and still remain directly in the world to help others. So, why didn't that happen?

Because the only way to pay for sin is by death.

If I were to sin once (by taking pride in something I'd done, for example), what's to stop me from sinning more and more after such an incident ?
After being condemned to death for one sin, the thread of death loses its edge.

Besides, I'm sure the all-powerful Jesus can take one more sin for the team.

He already took on all sins that had been committed and would be committed. However, for the Christian, the desire should be to avoid sin because it interrupts our ability to be in communion with God. It makes us rely on ourselves instead of on God, which will ultimately just lead to trouble.

[oVo]

If I were to sin once (by taking pride in something I'd done, for example), what's to stop me from sinning more and more after such an incident ?
After being condemned to death for one sin, the threat of death loses its edge.

Besides, I'm sure the all-powerful Jesus can take one more sin for the team.

Jesus may judge the quick and the dead, but God will forgive all transgressions.
So don't sweat the little stuff.

What kind of condemnation is death when there is the promise of eternal life?
Why does the Popemobile have bullet proof glass on it? Shouldn't the Pope be
the ultimate believer without a care in the world about departing this life
or is he just gun shy... and doesn't feel the love?

[ManBungalow]

Don't get me wrong, I feel that abiding by the ideals of not sinning would make lots of people much better human beings; but I don't approve of the "don't sin or you'll die" rhetoric.

[Night Strike]

Don't get me wrong, I feel that abiding by the ideals of not sinning would make lots of people much better human beings; but I don't approve of the "don't sin or you'll die" rhetoric.

Then you don't approve of the specific phrase "For the wages of sin are death" in the Bible. You don't get to just pick and choose which parts of the Bible you approve of. The "rhetoric" isn't just something that Christians made up.

[Army of GOD]

Don't get me wrong, I feel that abiding by the ideals of not sinning would make lots of people much better human beings; but I don't approve of the "don't sin or you'll die" rhetoric.

Then you don't approve of the specific phrase "For the wages of sin are death" in the Bible. You don't get to just pick and choose which parts of the Bible you approve of. The "rhetoric" isn't just something that Christians made up.

Do you think it's fair for God to kill the first born of every Egyptian, including those that had nothing to do with the enslaving of the Jews?