Conquer Club

Craig25 wrote:FOG RULES, CC should really fix this! And people need to stop posting Tournaments where they say it is in place but is not enforced. What a waste of time that is!

Anyway, if you want to play 2 Player RISK under FOGGY Conditions and want the Games to be FAIR while a FOG RULE is not in place, no waiting around, Games start immediately and it's still fair to both players..............Join the Super League, Established 2020, Still with 270 Players+ and over 100,000 Games played in it.....Season 14 starting SOON!:

https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewt ... 0&t=239478

Why does everything have to be an infomercial for your tourney?

detlef wrote:

Craig25 wrote:FOG RULES, CC should really fix this! And people need to stop posting Tournaments where they say it is in place but is not enforced. What a waste of time that is!

Anyway, if you want to play 2 Player RISK under FOGGY Conditions and want the Games to be FAIR while a FOG RULE is not in place, no waiting around, Games start immediately and it's still fair to both players..............Join the Super League, Established 2020, Still with 270 Players+ and over 100,000 Games played in it.....Season 14 starting SOON!:

https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewt ... 0&t=239478

Why does everything have to be an infomercial for your tourney?

You actually aren’t supposed to advertise tournaments and such out of designated areas. I got warned for that rule back in 2011 lol

bigtoughralf wrote: You could see what the board looked like as you finished your last turn, you can see what it looks like as you start your next turn. Why is it the other person's duty to tell you information you can see for yourself?

It's only for the very first turn of the game. It should be an autosnap anyway. As a clan player, I will give people 12 hours to take a snap since I'm used to it, but if they're known for jumping in and taking their turn right away, I won't give them that courtesy. I'm not going to kick up a stink if someone takes their turn right away, but I will know next time to return the favour.

My comments were mainly regarding the FOG issues.

However, I was also pointing out that there are ways to make the current set up of Fog games fair to both players without the need to wait for 12 Hours before taking turns. Like in the Super League - which is where the link to the Tournament comes in.

Craig25 wrote:My comments were mainly regarding the FOG issues.

However, I was also pointing out that there are ways to make the current set up of Fog games fair to both players without the need to wait for 12 Hours before taking turns. Like in the Super League - which is where the link to the Tournament comes in.

I can't find any mention of a fog rule in your tournament thread. What is this setup you have that makes fog games fair while also not requiring players to wait for a snap?

Caymanmew wrote:

Craig25 wrote:My comments were mainly regarding the FOG issues.

However, I was also pointing out that there are ways to make the current set up of Fog games fair to both players without the need to wait for 12 Hours before taking turns. Like in the Super League - which is where the link to the Tournament comes in.

I can't find any mention of a fog rule in your tournament thread. What is this setup you have that makes fog games fair while also not requiring players to wait for a snap?

Home teams join 2nd and can go right away.

HOME MATCH:
- You are the Green Army for HOME games.
- 2 Games on Map of your Choice (Your Home Map)
- 2 Games on Random Map
- You accept Game Invites Last - Can move immediatly taking full advantage of your opponent not getting any snaps!

AWAY MATCH:
- You are the Red Army for AWAY games.
- 2 Games on Your OPPONENTS HOME Map
- 2 Games On Random Map
- You accept Game invites 1st - Your opponent gets to start as soon as they accept game invites.

IcePack wrote:

Caymanmew wrote:

Craig25 wrote:My comments were mainly regarding the FOG issues.

However, I was also pointing out that there are ways to make the current set up of Fog games fair to both players without the need to wait for 12 Hours before taking turns. Like in the Super League - which is where the link to the Tournament comes in.

I can't find any mention of a fog rule in your tournament thread. What is this setup you have that makes fog games fair while also not requiring players to wait for a snap?

Home teams join 2nd and can go right away.

HOME MATCH:
- You are the Green Army for HOME games.
- 2 Games on Map of your Choice (Your Home Map)
- 2 Games on Random Map
- You accept Game Invites Last - Can move immediatly taking full advantage of your opponent not getting any snaps!

AWAY MATCH:
- You are the Red Army for AWAY games.
- 2 Games on Your OPPONENTS HOME Map
- 2 Games On Random Map
- You accept Game invites 1st - Your opponent gets to start as soon as they accept game invites.

Obviously not your rules, so I am not arguing with you, but that seems horribly unfair. Not only do you get a home map advantage you also get an information advantage on top of it. And it is in a 1v1 game as well which is already so luck based to begin with.

Caymanmew wrote:

IcePack wrote:

Caymanmew wrote:

Craig25 wrote:My comments were mainly regarding the FOG issues.

However, I was also pointing out that there are ways to make the current set up of Fog games fair to both players without the need to wait for 12 Hours before taking turns. Like in the Super League - which is where the link to the Tournament comes in.

I can't find any mention of a fog rule in your tournament thread. What is this setup you have that makes fog games fair while also not requiring players to wait for a snap?

Home teams join 2nd and can go right away.

HOME MATCH:
- You are the Green Army for HOME games.
- 2 Games on Map of your Choice (Your Home Map)
- 2 Games on Random Map
- You accept Game Invites Last - Can move immediatly taking full advantage of your opponent not getting any snaps!

AWAY MATCH:
- You are the Red Army for AWAY games.
- 2 Games on Your OPPONENTS HOME Map
- 2 Games On Random Map
- You accept Game invites 1st - Your opponent gets to start as soon as they accept game invites.

Obviously not your rules, so I am not arguing with you, but that seems horribly unfair. Not only do you get a home map advantage you also get an information advantage on top of it. And it is in a 1v1 game as well which is already so luck based to begin with.

That’s why I always waited good time to join so I can take a snap right away once invit accepted if I was not starting first. Nothing fair…just Craig’s unicorn & rainbow’s world.

Caymanmew wrote:

IcePack wrote:

Caymanmew wrote:

Craig25 wrote:My comments were mainly regarding the FOG issues.

However, I was also pointing out that there are ways to make the current set up of Fog games fair to both players without the need to wait for 12 Hours before taking turns. Like in the Super League - which is where the link to the Tournament comes in.

I can't find any mention of a fog rule in your tournament thread. What is this setup you have that makes fog games fair while also not requiring players to wait for a snap?

Home teams join 2nd and can go right away.

HOME MATCH:
- You are the Green Army for HOME games.
- 2 Games on Map of your Choice (Your Home Map)
- 2 Games on Random Map
- You accept Game Invites Last - Can move immediatly taking full advantage of your opponent not getting any snaps!

AWAY MATCH:
- You are the Red Army for AWAY games.
- 2 Games on Your OPPONENTS HOME Map
- 2 Games On Random Map
- You accept Game invites 1st - Your opponent gets to start as soon as they accept game invites.

Obviously not your rules, so I am not arguing with you, but that seems horribly unfair. Not only do you get a home map advantage you also get an information advantage on top of it. And it is in a 1v1 game as well which is already so luck based to begin with.

How dare you question the most skilled tourney in CC?

Craig25 wrote:My comments were mainly regarding the FOG issues.

However, I was also pointing out that there are ways to make the current set up of Fog games fair to both players without the need to wait for 12 Hours before taking turns. Like in the Super League - which is where the link to the Tournament comes in.

First of all, making it fair by trying to disadvantage each player equally is silly imo. Second that doesn't even make sense, because if you start the game and start 2nd, then you lose the see-the-board-on-first-turn-but-not-your-opponent advantage that he might have on his homes (though tbf if in a 1v1 tournament you get no starts you're screwed anyways, especially when said tournament excludes most special play maps because the games have to be over as quickly as possible).

TrafalgarLaw01 wrote:

Caymanmew wrote:

IcePack wrote:

Caymanmew wrote:

Craig25 wrote:My comments were mainly regarding the FOG issues.

However, I was also pointing out that there are ways to make the current set up of Fog games fair to both players without the need to wait for 12 Hours before taking turns. Like in the Super League - which is where the link to the Tournament comes in.

I can't find any mention of a fog rule in your tournament thread. What is this setup you have that makes fog games fair while also not requiring players to wait for a snap?

Home teams join 2nd and can go right away.

HOME MATCH:
- You are the Green Army for HOME games.
- 2 Games on Map of your Choice (Your Home Map)
- 2 Games on Random Map
- You accept Game Invites Last - Can move immediatly taking full advantage of your opponent not getting any snaps!

AWAY MATCH:
- You are the Red Army for AWAY games.
- 2 Games on Your OPPONENTS HOME Map
- 2 Games On Random Map
- You accept Game invites 1st - Your opponent gets to start as soon as they accept game invites.

Obviously not your rules, so I am not arguing with you, but that seems horribly unfair. Not only do you get a home map advantage you also get an information advantage on top of it. And it is in a 1v1 game as well which is already so luck based to begin with.

How dare you question the most skilled tourney in CC?

I was under the impression the super league was luck based tournament for low ranks and tournament addicts, which explains the lack of almost all the better players on the site.

Caymanmew wrote:

IcePack wrote:

Caymanmew wrote:

Craig25 wrote:My comments were mainly regarding the FOG issues.

However, I was also pointing out that there are ways to make the current set up of Fog games fair to both players without the need to wait for 12 Hours before taking turns. Like in the Super League - which is where the link to the Tournament comes in.

I can't find any mention of a fog rule in your tournament thread. What is this setup you have that makes fog games fair while also not requiring players to wait for a snap?

Home teams join 2nd and can go right away.

HOME MATCH:
- You are the Green Army for HOME games.
- 2 Games on Map of your Choice (Your Home Map)
- 2 Games on Random Map
- You accept Game Invites Last - Can move immediatly taking full advantage of your opponent not getting any snaps!

AWAY MATCH:
- You are the Red Army for AWAY games.
- 2 Games on Your OPPONENTS HOME Map
- 2 Games On Random Map
- You accept Game invites 1st - Your opponent gets to start as soon as they accept game invites.

Obviously not your rules, so I am not arguing with you, but that seems horribly unfair. Not only do you get a home map advantage you also get an information advantage on top of it. And it is in a 1v1 game as well which is already so luck based to begin with.

Yeah was just pointing this section out. I could be wrong idk I don’t play it, but you said you couldn’t find the reference so I looked for the relevant bits from what I could tell

Caymanmew wrote:
I was under the impression the super league was luck based tournament for low ranks and tournament addicts, which explains the lack of almost all the better players on the site.

It's true virtually all the players in the super league are under 3,000 and long may it stay that way. This tournament, without a shadow of a doubt, is the only reason a lot of premium players stay on this site, without this tournament they would be long gone. Some of them are non clan players and weren't really aware of the fog rule so to them it isn't "unfair" as they probably don't take snaps anyway.

It would be great if the tournament mods could embrace this extremely well-run tournament instead of constantly sneering at Craig and the rest of his team who put a great deal of effort into making it fun to play.

While I disagree with the notion that Craig's solution is fair for all, I do admire his dedication to running tournaments and an attempt at making it fairer for those who usually play without fog rule.

The best part about Super League, is that it's success and popularity pisses off all the right people on CC.

275 players, 100 of which are ranked 2000+, and demonstrate skill across every map on CC.

You can see how thqt level of participation annoys some people who lack the ability to set up something that is great fun and attracts buy in from hundreds of other players. Or can only maintain a rank by sticking to niche settings on niche maps.

It really is great fun, you should all join and learn a thing or 2

Saying that, Super League has an un-written rule which would exclude a lot of you from entering

And N1 Scarlet, TY for your kind words. It's actually really great fun helping to organise it too. The reactions above are just an added bonus

And also, don't confuse luck with fairness peeps.

Fairness is 4 games against each Player at Home and Away. An equal chance for every player to benefit from fog as each is last to join the games on 4 of the 8 games against each other . And over 72 games a Season and 14 Seasons, the luck element of who goes 1st balances out. That is a statistical fact. Toss a coin a Thousand Times and the outcome will be close to 50/50 almost every single times.

Of the 100,000+ Super Leagus Games so far, no more than 50.1 % will have the HOME or AWAY player getting 1st turn.

Scarlet Lady wrote:

Caymanmew wrote:
I was under the impression the super league was luck based tournament for low ranks and tournament addicts, which explains the lack of almost all the better players on the site.

It's true virtually all the players in the super league are under 3,000 and long may it stay that way. This tournament, without a shadow of a doubt, is the only reason a lot of premium players stay on this site, without this tournament they would be long gone. Some of them are non clan players and weren't really aware of the fog rule so to them it isn't "unfair" as they probably don't take snaps anyway.

It would be great if the tournament mods could embrace this extremely well-run tournament instead of constantly sneering at Craig and the rest of his team who put a great deal of effort into making it fun to play.

I 100% agree with that Scarlet. Craig is without doubt the best tournament organiser this site has ever seen and long may he continue.

Craig25 wrote: And also, don't confuse luck with fairness peeps.

Fairness is 4 games against each Player at Home and Away. An equal chance for every player to benefit from fog as each is last to join the games on 4 of the 8 games against each other . And over 72 games a Season and 14 Seasons, the luck element of who goes 1st balances out. That is a statistical fact. Toss a coin a Thousand Times and the outcome will be close to 50/50 almost every single times.

Of the 100,000+ Super Leagus Games so far, no more than 50.1 % will have the HOME or AWAY player getting 1st turn.

Considering your tournaments are not autotournaments I concede the 50/50 start point. However, it would be most fair if that didn't matter for fog purposes and both players could have all the info they want, either because they are playing conquest maps or because of a fog rule. Again, I admire you trying to fix 1st turn/last join advantage without a fog rule, but it will never be equal to the actual fog rule.

Incredibly fair when both players get exactly the same HOME advantage in 4/8 games against each other in the Season.

Caymanmew wrote:
Obviously not your rules, so I am not arguing with you, but that seems horribly unfair. Not only do you get a home map advantage you also get an information advantage on top of it. And it is in a 1v1 game as well which is already so luck based to begin with.

Currently there is no actual Fog Rule that is full proof. Until such times that there is, a 2 legged Tournament Round where both players have an equal chance to benefit from a fog advantage is the only way forward.

A technology based solution from CC is the only way to improve on it, but. I agree. A 100% full proof, enforceable solution would be better. But see above, currently, that is a pipe dream.

I create fair Tournaments using the tools that are currently available.

Extreme Ways wrote:Considering your tournaments are not autotournaments I concede the 50/50 start point. However, it would be most fair if that didn't matter for fog purposes and both players could have all the info they want, either because they are playing conquest maps or because of a fog rule. Again, I admire you trying to fix 1st turn/last join advantage without a fog rule, but it will never be equal to the actual fog rule.

Craig25 wrote:Currently there is no actual Fog Rule that is full proof. Until such times that there is, a 2 legged Tournament Round where both players have an equal chance to benefit from a fog advantage is the only way forward.

A technology based solution from CC is the only way to improve on it, but. I agree. A 100% full proof, enforceable solution would be better. But see above, currently, that is a pipe dream.

I create fair Tournaments using the tools that are currently available.

Extreme Ways wrote:Considering your tournaments are not autotournaments I concede the 50/50 start point. However, it would be most fair if that didn't matter for fog purposes and both players could have all the info they want, either because they are playing conquest maps or because of a fog rule. Again, I admire you trying to fix 1st turn/last join advantage without a fog rule, but it will never be equal to the actual fog rule.

Clans enforce the fog rule without much problem and have rules in place to handle situations when it is broken. Should be around 300 to 400 people in clans these days, mostly 2k+ rank. It is for sure the best solution,and makes fog completely fair, but you need a level of control and buy-in you probably wouldn't get in a lower ranked event like super league.


Honestly, super league would be interesting to me if it was poly instead of 1v1. I suspect you'd get a lot more high ranks willing to play if it was poly, even with the settings and ban map list as they are. But the tournament appeals to a large player base, many of which aren't willing or able to be involved in clans, so it is good for those types to have a primary competition to focus on.

Saying that, Super League has an un-written rule which would exclude a lot of you from entering

What unwritten rules would prevent us from entering?

It is un-written, if I wrote it down it would not be un-written, OBV!

And to be honest, 100+ players Ranked +2000 in the Super League already is A-Okay by me. Why don't you have a try at it? A Poly Super League, you never know?

Also, maybe if you made the Clan System more inviting to players there would be more of an uptake?

Craig25 wrote:It is un-written, if I wrote it down it would not be un-written, OBV!

And to be honest, 100+ players Ranked +2000 in the Super League already is A-Okay by me. Why don't you have a try at it? A Poly Super League, you never know?

Also, maybe if you made the Clan System more inviting to players there would be more of an uptake?

To add on to this, to be a single TO that has to deal with broken fog rules when it's not an established principle in that specific scene yet... I wouldn't want that to be me/

FOG RULE

Hooch wrote:FOG RULE

Problem solved

And, a Fog Rule for a handful of Clan Games that requires manual enforcement, and probably some disputes.

Would be nowhere near good enough for a 'Super Tournament' with what is approaching 100,000 Games.

The Tourney needs to be fair, when you go introducing a Fog Rule that will not be 100% accurate for 100% of the Games, it becomes un-fair.

Maybe part of the reason for high participation levels.

Compare that to Tourneys with a Fog Rule that is not enforced. Most people opt to play in a fair Tourney.

Caymanmew wrote:

Craig25 wrote:Currently there is no actual Fog Rule that is full proof. Until such times that there is, a 2 legged Tournament Round where both players have an equal chance to benefit from a fog advantage is the only way forward.

A technology based solution from CC is the only way to improve on it, but. I agree. A 100% full proof, enforceable solution would be better. But see above, currently, that is a pipe dream.

I create fair Tournaments using the tools that are currently available.

Extreme Ways wrote:Considering your tournaments are not autotournaments I concede the 50/50 start point. However, it would be most fair if that didn't matter for fog purposes and both players could have all the info they want, either because they are playing conquest maps or because of a fog rule. Again, I admire you trying to fix 1st turn/last join advantage without a fog rule, but it will never be equal to the actual fog rule.

Clans enforce the fog rule without much problem and have rules in place to handle situations when it is broken. Should be around 300 to 400 people in clans these days, mostly 2k+ rank. It is for sure the best solution,and makes fog completely fair, but you need a level of control and buy-in you probably wouldn't get in a lower ranked event like super league.


Honestly, super league would be interesting to me if it was poly instead of 1v1. I suspect you'd get a lot more high ranks willing to play if it was poly, even with the settings and ban map list as they are. But the tournament appeals to a large player base, many of which aren't willing or able to be involved in clans, so it is good for those types to have a primary competition to focus on.

Saying that, Super League has an un-written rule which would exclude a lot of you from entering

What unwritten rules would prevent us from entering?