[Abandoned] - België: Battle of Languages

[MarVal]

_____________________________________________________

UPDATE 06

Larger map (800x840)
[bigimg]http://www.aluy.eu/CC/Belgie_07.jpg[/bigimg]

• New layout
• Changed the rivers
• Added mountains
• New bonuses armies for the Provinces

To Do list

• Bonuses for holding ? arrondissements of different language areas
• Attack routes
• Impassible routes
• Abbreviates legend
• Strategy
• Gameplay

_____________________________________________________

[spoiler=map info]

• Three Regions
  
  • The Flemish Region, subdivided into 5 provinces (23 arrondissements)
    
    • Dutch language area
  • The Walloon Region, subdivided into 5 provinces (23 arrondissements, included Ostkantone)
    
    • French language area
  • The Brussels-Capital Region, subdivide into 6 municipalities
    
    • bilingual language area
  [/spoiler]
  [spoiler=Ideas]Victory gains by
  
  
  1. Balancing the Languages by conquering and holding:
     
     • the community Bruxelles / Brussel (B/B)
     • the Capitals (An, E & N)
     • all the Treaties (Dutch, French & German)
  
  At the beginning of a game
  
  
  • Neutral with X armies
    
    • The community Capital Eupen (E)
    • The community Bruxelles / Brussel (B/B)
    • The Capitals Antwerpen (An) & Namur (N)
    • The Dutch, French & German Treaty
  • Player
    
    • Starting with 1 randomly chosen Jurisdiction
    • Each player starts in another Province
  
  Bonuses
  
  
  • Holding a Province & his Province Capital
    
    • Oost-Vlaanderen & city Brugge (B) = 2
    • West-Vlaanderen & city Gent (G) = 4
    • Antwerpen & city Antwerpen (An) = 3
    • Vlaams-Brabant & city Leuven (Le) = 2
    • Limburg & city Hasselt (H) = 2
    • Hainaut & city Mons (M) = 5
    • Brabant Wallon & city Wavre (W) = 1
    • Namur & city Namur (N) = 2
    • Liège & city Liège (L) = 2
    • Luxembourg & city Arlon (A) = 2
  • Holding the community Bruxelles / Brussel (B/B) = 0
  • Holding the community Ostkantone = 1
  
  Autodeply
  
  
  • When holding the Dutch Treaty with X armies
  • When holding the French Treaty with X armies
  • When holding the German Treaty with X armies
  
  Attack Routes
  
  
  • 2-ways Attack
    
    • Jurisdictions connecting to each other
    • Jurisdictions connecting to the river
  • 1-way Attack
    
    • from the city Antwerpen (An) to the French Treaty
    • from the city Namur (N) to the French Treaty
    • from the city Eupen (E) to the German Treaty
  • 2-ways bombardment
    
    • Between the Capitals
  
  impassable borders
  
  
  • Yellow border
  • Province borders
  [/spoiler]
  [spoiler=More ideas]Victory is gained by:
  
  1. Conquering and holding X rounds the Flemish region
  2. Conquering and holding X rounds the Walloon region
  3. Conquering and holding X rounds the Brussels-Capital region
  Neutral countries:
  
  • Harbour Antwerp with X armies on it by the start of the game
  • X Walloon country with X armies on it by the start of the game
  • Capital of Flemish: Brussels with X armies on it by the start of the game
  • Capital of Walloon: Namur with X armies on it by the start of the game
  More ideas:
  
  • Reinforcement Flemish (holding a X country) with a treaty between the Netherlands
  • Reinforcement Walloon (holding a X country) with a treaty between France

[/list]All feedback,suggestions and critisism are welcome.
When the first image of the map will be seen, we can discuss about the army bonuses, the (attack/defense) positions of the countries, gameplay and more [/spoiler] _____________________________________________________

Grtz
MV

[captainwalrus]

You should send a PM over to [player]thenobodies80[/player] or [player]MrBenn[/player]and ask one of them to move this out of here, they are the ones that have usually done the moving in here.

[MrBenn]

[moved] back into the melting pot.

It's worth taking into consideration some of the feedback left by oaktown before the map went on vacation - I'd suggest putting together a 'design brief' next.

[zimmah]

note that some regions are actually german (euponer land & Helscher Aifel i believe)

[Riazor]

note that some regions are actually german (euponer land & Helscher Aifel i believe)

The regions you are talking about ARE Belgian, they just speak German in that area.

[MarVal]

note that some regions are actually german (euponer land & Helscher Aifel i believe)

The regions you are talking about ARE Belgian, they just speak German in that area.

Thats correct and if someone knows that its ---> [player]Riazor[/player]

New update will be next Monday.

Grtz
MV

[thebest712]

In Ostkantone they speak german

[MarVal]

_____________________________________________________

UPDATE 07

Larger map (800x840)
[bigimg]http://www.aluy.eu/CC/Belgie_08.jpg[/bigimg]

• Gameplay Objective
• Abbreviates
• New text colors
• New borderlines between the provinces

Victory gains by

• Conquering and holding the 5 capitals of Flemish Region + Brussels Region
• Conquering and holding the 5 capitals of Walloon Region + Brussels Region

To Do list

• Attack routes
• Impassible routes
• Strategy
• Gameplay

_____________________________________________________

[SirSebstar]

2 questions, i gather brussel does not get any bonus? is that right?
also, in the oversight map, there the red area denotes the location of brusssel. perhaps using red in the playable map is not so wise.

also the colours on the legend and its corresponding country are not the same to me...

[MrBenn]

Map Name: België: Battle of Languages
Link to Thread: viewtopic.php?f=63&t=73233
Mapmaker(s): MarVal
Map Size: 60
Your aims/design style: A map of Belgium, but not a map only with territories on it, but also (hopefully) a battle of the Languages.
In the 19th century it was necessary to speak French to belong to the governing upper class, and those who could only speak Dutch were effectively second-class citizens. Late 19th century and continuing into the 20th century, Flemish movements evolved to counter this situation. While the Walloons and most Brusselers adopted French as their first language, the Flemings refused to do so and succeeded progressively in imposing Dutch as Flanders' official language. Following World War II, Belgian politics became increasingly dominated by the autonomy of its two main language communities. Intercommunal tensions rose and the constitution was amended in order to minimise the conflict potentials.
The second half of the 20th century was marked by the rise of communal conflicts between the Flemings and the Francophones fuelled by cultural differences on the one hand and an asymmetrical economic evolution of Flanders and Wallonia on the other hand. These still-active conflicts have caused far-reaching reforms of the formerly unitary Belgian state into a federal state.

So with a little history and present here above, I hope I can realize a sort of gameplay of a Belgium with the 3 official language communities:

• the Flemish Community (Dutch-speaking)
• the French (i.e., French-speaking) Community
• the German-speaking Community

divided into 3 regions:

• the Flemish Region, subdivided into 5 provinces (23 arrondissements)
• the Walloon Region, subdivided into 5 provinces (23 arrondissements, included Ostkantone)
• the Brussels-Capital Region, subdivided into 6 municipalities

Further possible ideas, such as:

• Starting position(s) in either the Flemish Region or in the Walloon Region
• Neutrals on the Brussels-Capital Region
• 1-way bombardment from the capitals of Flemish Region and Walloon Region on their own provinces.

Uniqueness: The theme of the Battle of Languages with (possible) 2 Gameplay language Objective;

• Conquering and holding the 5 capitals of Flemish Region + Brussels Region
• Conquering and holding the 5 capitals of Walloon Region + Brussels Region

Also will the map have starting positions, neutrals, bombardments and so on.
Relevant Experience: One map quenched; BeNeLux. And I did the XML as well.

The current focus needs to be on developing the gameplay before too much further work on the graphics.
Onwards and Upwards
[Moved] to the gameplay workshop.

[MarVal]

Thanks for moving this to the gameplay workshop.

I hope I will get some feedback and shall work on a better detailed idea of gameplay.

And for SirSebstar, Thanks for your post. I will look after it, but first shall I work further out the gameplay. If you have ideas or suggestions, just let me know. Thanks.

Grtz
MarVal

[natty dread]

For the brussel inset... I'd suggest drawing the borders of the surrounding territories on the inset, so that you can see which territory borders which. It's a bit hard to see from the big map, that ST-Joost and Elsene border Leuven. So if the part of Leuven that borders them was drawn on the inset, it'd be easier to see.


Some thoughts on the bonus values:

Namur should be a +3. It has 3 borders to defend, so it'd be appropriate to get at least 1 troop for every territory that needs to be forted.

In the same logic, Limburg should be a +2. It has 3 territories, but only 2 to defend to hold it.

Oost-Vlanderen only gets +2, while having to defend 4 borders. It is also hard to conquer, with that river dividing it in two. The bonus should be higher, at least +4.



That river in the north of the map boggles me. It is impassable right? It seems to isolate a large area, with no way in or out except the Mouscron - Comines-Warneton connection. That's a tight bottleneck there.

I'd suggest bridging that river in at least one more place. Antwerpen-Sint-Niklaas would be good otherwise, but it would make holding Oost-Vlanderen even harder. So perhaps Gent-Aalst? This way the border count for Oost-Vlanderen stays the same, and taking the bonus area will be less tedious.

[DubWarrior]

Hi, a map about my country, funny
Some idea's on the Gameplay...This map is called battle of languages.
maybe you should place the map in the '60 when there was a lot going around about the independence of language of universities, schools, factories, etc..(i mean, some dutch speaking people worked in the walloon area but caused problems because they spoke dutch. and some uni's and factorys in flanders where led by french speaking industrials...it led to the 'Leuven Vlaams' revolt in '68) also a lot was going on about Voeren and Komen/comines...i would love to see more focus on the battle of languages, with problems such as 'where to draw the language-line' (in '63), voeren, Komines etc...also, the german-speaking part realy needs to make part of this map, we are speaking 3 languages in this tiny country. Also, since Brussels is the capital of the EU a lot is going around to make English an official language....more ideas..i will follow this map, GL with it! check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_legislation_in_Belgium and the Belgium-page on wiki (in dutch- you find more info on the languages and 'leuven vlaams' on the dutch page )

[MarVal]

Thanks natty_dread & DubWarrior for all the info.

Yes, the river is a bottleneck for Gameplay. I shall see what the do about strategy and gameplay.

Further I read all the info of the Language struggle through the years and yes, I see a lot of potential for doing more with that. Especially Gameplay can be more interest with all the municipalities with language facilities. I know have to figure it out how to put them on the map.

Thanks also for the link!

GL with your map.

Grtz
MarVal

[skepticCS]

Even in it's early stages, it seems to me that this map has the potential to be very attractive and fun to play. I think the theme and the concept of the ethnic-linguistic divisions is an excellent idea and sets this map apart from other CC maps on the region. I also like where you're going. graphically, with the capital cities. There is more to do in making them seem to mesh better with the map, though, so they don't seem like they are just floating within each territory. Perhaps connect them by highways or rail lines that offer additional attack routes across territories.

I know this is the gameplay forum, but I do want to comment on the color scheme. Being color-blind, it is VERY difficult for me to connect which territory is which. It's not impossible by any means and the mini map you have provide gives me most of the information I need. But the prevalence of earthy/green tones may not be the best choice, especially for folks worse off than me.

For now, that's about my only critique, and forgive me if it has already been mentioned since I have only just started to follow this map.

[MarVal]

Even in it's early stages, it seems to me that this map has the potential to be very attractive and fun to play. I think the theme and the concept of the ethnic-linguistic divisions is an excellent idea and sets this map apart from other CC maps on the region.
Yes, thats why it takes a minute for announce the good strategy and gameplay with the ethnic-linguistic divisions

I also like where you're going. graphically, with the capital cities. There is more to do in making them seem to mesh better with the map, though, so they don't seem like they are just floating within each territory. Perhaps connect them by highways or rail lines that offer additional attack routes across territories.
I shall take that in consideration, thanks for your suggestion.

I know this is the gameplay forum, but I do want to comment on the color scheme. Being color-blind, it is VERY difficult for me to connect which territory is which. It's not impossible by any means and the mini map you have provide gives me most of the information I need. But the prevalence of earthy/green tones may not be the best choice, especially for folks worse off than me.

For now, that's about my only critique, and forgive me if it has already been mentioned since I have only just started to follow this map.
Again thanks for your suggestions, when this map reaches the Graphics Workshop, I can work that further out.

I hope to have a little update next weekend.

Grtz
MarVal

[MichelSableheart]

I like the general idea of the map. A couple of comments though.

2 troops seems to be a bit much for the two regions of ostkantone.

I'm not liking the choke points in west vlaanderen. Especially the fact that the only way go go from the east of the flemish region to the west is through the french language region irks me.

Isn't holding 5 capitals plus all of brussel a bit difficult as a victory condition? It seems virtually impossible to achieve.

[Evil DIMwit]

I'm not liking the choke points in west vlaanderen. Especially the fact that the only way go go from the east of the flemish region to the west is through the french language region irks me.

Completely agreed. A bridge or two would be nice.

Isn't holding 5 capitals plus all of brussel a bit difficult as a victory condition? It seems virtually impossible to achieve.

The default victory condition is controlling the entire map, so it can't be all that hard.

[MichelSableheart]

The default victory condition is controlling the entire map, so it can't be all that hard.

Not if you control all of the map already, no. But before you do that? Is it possible to win a game on this victory condition that you wouldn't win otherwise?

[Evil DIMwit]

The default victory condition is controlling the entire map, so it can't be all that hard.

Not if you control all of the map already, no. But before you do that? Is it possible to win a game on this victory condition that you wouldn't win otherwise?

Possibly, especially considering you can hold three capitals and Brussels by holding Halle-Vilvoorde, Leuven, and Tongeren. Then again, that might make the map imbalanced towards the north.

[MarVal]

The default victory condition is controlling the entire map, so it can't be all that hard.

Not if you control all of the map already, no. But before you do that? Is it possible to win a game on this victory condition that you wouldn't win otherwise?

Possibly, especially considering you can hold three capitals and Brussels by holding Halle-Vilvoorde, Leuven, and Tongeren. Then again, that might make the map imbalanced towards the north.

Yes, it can be unbalanced towards the North. Bridges are a good idea.

What I want is more battle towards the different languages, just like DubWarrior already suggest. I'm thinking if its possibly to use the inofrmation in here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_facilities

Grtz
MV

[jasnostj]

'Congratulations' on the fall of your government today.

As a next door neighbour (Dutch), I am reading what this thing is about, after having heard bits and pieces in recent years. And hell, the whole BHV (Brussel-Halle-Vilvoorde) thing, THAT would make an excellent CC map! Way more interesting than another rather conventional map of Belgium (we've had the Benelux map already). My problem with this map of Belgium, is that Halle-Vilvoorde is treated as one territory, while it is here that almost Balkan-like things are going on. It would be so cool to zoom in onto this!

But I know, you've come too far to change it all. Promise me then to make a BHV map as your next project. That is, if Belgium still exists by that time...

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels-Halle-Vilvoorde.

[DubWarrior]

I am truly ashamed, as a Belgian, for these balkan-eske politics. But it sounds like a nice idea...although very complex stuff to work on.

[Industrial Helix]

I'm quite impressed how the clarity of this map has improved over time. Before I couldn't figure the map out and now it seems to make some sense.

Though how does one cross the river?

And are the glow borders impassable save for the dotted areas of them?

[Evil DIMwit]

[Moved]

Alas! It would appear that development of this map has stalled. If the mapmaker wants to continue with the map, then one of the Foundry Moderators will be able to help put the thread back into the Foundry system, after an update has been made.