Conquer Club

The following was posted in the Fort Hood thread. I created a new thread, so as not to go so far off topic.

sexyflanders wrote:

The other problem is that as we have a border with Mexico and Canada that can be infiltrated so easily we cannot control what goods or people enter the US.
[DISCLAIMER] That is not an indication of my views on the state of American borders or what we should do. I was pointing out that we do not have much control over what comes in and out of this country[/DISCLAIMER]

Ironically enough, the problem is not guns and such coming INTO the US. It is them going OUT OF the US. Both Mexico and Canada have a lot harsher gun laws than we do here in the US. Mexican laws are particularly restrictive.

Drugs come in, but the guns used in the smuggling originate from the US. ... and yep, it looks like I am guilty of going off topic again, so I guess any continuation should be in another thread. (in fact, I think I will move this to one).

Got any proof? Or is this opinion/propaganda?

Serbia wrote:Got any proof? Or is this opinion/propaganda?

Talk to anyone who works on the border and they will say this, but I will try to find some real data.

The argument for most guns originating in the U.S. -

Story For
Quick Read -

Story For wrote:WASHINGTON - June 18 - More than 90 percent of the firearms seized in Mexico and traced by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) over the last three years came from the United States, according to a new report released today by the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO). The study also found that according to U.S. and Mexican government officials, “these firearms have been increasingly more powerful and lethal in recent years” with many of the weapons coming from gun shops and gun shows in Southwest border states of the U.S. Many of the weapons, the study found, are AR-15 and AK-47 type semiautomatic assault rifles. The study also revealed that of the traced guns, nearly 22 percent were manufactured in third countries and imported into the United States before being trafficked into Mexico.

You'll find it interesting to note that even the wording in this story says "90 percent of firearms seized AND traced". Obviously, not all firearms are in fact traced. Which leads us to the next story:

The Clarification
Quick Read -

The Clarification wrote:In 2007-2008, the Mexican government recovered 29,000 firearms at crimescenes in Mexico. Agent Newell reports that Mexico submitted 11,000 guns to the ATF for tracing. Out of that 11,000, only 6,000 were successfully traced – and out of that, 5,114, or 90%, actually came from the US.

The bottom line: only 17% of firearms used in Mexican violent crimes originate from the US.

The Clarification wrote:The majority of guns used in violent Mexican crimes come from a number of places: other Latin and South American countries, Asia, and Russian crime syndicates. The firearms are sold through the Mexican black market, which is a United Nations of illegal arms sales, smuggled in from everywhere from China to Israel to the former Soviet Bloc countries.

Which honestly makes much more sense to anyone who thinks about it, than to think that they come from the USA. Think about it, wouldn't you rather get your hands on some Ukrainian weapons that aren't easily traced back to anyone, than to buy a Smith and Wesson which can be traced back to a particular dealer at a known address in Texas? Doesn't add up.

It is interesting that, while the media was quick to report the initial quote, very few were interested in the clarification.

I never said that the majority of guns in Mexico come from the US.

The comment was that our borders are porus and letting guns in here. I said that there is a far bigger problem of guns being taken out of the US, not folks bringing them here to do crime. That 90% of guns traced came from the US bears that up. I said nothing about guns used in crime in Mexico.

Guns are easier to get here in the US than in either Mexico or the US.

I make no comment about the border porosity in general or gun control in either country.

Nicely laid out Serbia....thank you!

And I simply dont understand what point player is trying to make with this.............

But here is a wonderful clip on gun safety.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpgL5kuBpMA

KoolBak wrote:Nicely laid out Serbia....thank you!

And I simply dont understand what point player is trying to make with this.............

But here is a wonderful clip on gun safety.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpgL5kuBpMA

My thanks also, Serbia!

And KB, I don't think player has a point, she's just trolling!

Plaxico on gun safety! Too damn funny!!

(Hey KB, how was the chukar hunt?)

PLAYER57832 wrote:Guns are easier to get here in the US than in either Mexico or the US.

Maybe you should reread what you wrote

KoolBak wrote:Nicely laid out Serbia....thank you!

And I simply dont understand what point player is trying to make with this.............

But here is a wonderful clip on gun safety.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpgL5kuBpMA

Man is that ever funny!

KoolBak wrote:But here is a wonderful clip on gun safety.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpgL5kuBpMA

Borderdawg wrote:And KB, I don't think player has a point, she's just trolling!

MENSA doesn't think so....

Yo Dawg.....the trip was most excellent...had a great time, saw tons of wildlife and killed none....lol

PM me for a game!

HapSmo19 wrote:

KoolBak wrote:But here is a wonderful clip on gun safety.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpgL5kuBpMA

Borderdawg wrote:And KB, I don't think player has a point, she's just trolling!

MENSA doesn't think so....

Damn it, Hap!! I was taking a drink when I read this, and nearly choked to death!!

PLAYER57832 wrote:I never said that the majority of guns in Mexico come from the US.

The comment was that our borders are porus and letting guns in here. I said that there is a far bigger problem of guns being taken out of the US, not folks bringing them here to do crime. That 90% of guns traced came from the US bears that up. I said nothing about guns used in crime in Mexico.

Guns are easier to get here in the US than in either Mexico or the US.

I make no comment about the border porosity in general or gun control in either country.

You mean.....it is harder to get a gun legally in mexico than the US.
More people who get their guns to commit crime wouldn't get it from bob's gun store or another legal source.And that is where the borders come in.
Maybe a gunshow, there are loopholes. However, I can tell you from experience that if they don't like the look of you, many guys at gun shows won't sell to you due to the chance of it getting traced back to them if you commit a crime.

Also, if you want to acquire an automatic weapon legally you must qualify for a class 3 license, which you have to apply for directly from the government so they can check up on you.
Need an uzi, but have a record of B&E's and some possession charges? Even just a misdemeanor?
Black market is your only choice.

Also, as easy as it can be to get a gun, a member of my family who used to be a deputy sheriff has great difficulty getting a firearm because of a 20 year old restraining order put on by a woman who was later convicted of assaulting him.

Firearm laws in this country are pretty retarded, and not just in the ways an anti-gun person would think.
Clinton's assault weapons ban? That was a joke. It didn't prevent anything really.
With many of the weapons banned under that, all one had to do was just take the flash suppressor or pistol grip off and it's no longer illegal. lol

For the record, I am by no means "anti-gun".

The argument , in the context of the Ft Hood shooting, was that our border is porus and letting all kinds of guns come into this country, that this was a security risk to us.

I pointed out that most of those guns brought into the US across the border come from the US, which indicates that the biggest flow of guns is into Mexico rather than out of Mexico. There are border issues, issues of security, etc. It is just that the firearm issue is our issue much more more than Mexico's. We are causing them far more problems in that regard than they are for us.

In Mexico, you can only legally get a gun in a few places. People have to travel a day or more in many cases to get a gun and those available are very limited. The US has very loose laws by comparison. As to the "sense" of our laws -- they are a mishmash of things that are real and things that don't matter a lick and things that are perhaps even harmful. (like insisting that certain antique guns have gun locks... though they won't prevent the gun from firing).

The Clarification
Quick Read -

The Clarification wrote:In 2007-2008, the Mexican government recovered 29,000 firearms at crimescenes in Mexico. Agent Newell reports that Mexico submitted 11,000 guns to the ATF for tracing. Out of that 11,000, only 6,000 were successfully traced – and out of that, 5,114, or 90%, actually came from the US.

The bottom line: only 17% of firearms used in Mexican violent crimes originate from the US.

That is frankly a terrible analysis. One could say that only 17% of firearms recovered after use in Mexican violent crimes (in 2007-2008) were PROVEN to have come from the US. To say that is ALL that actually came from the US is nonsense to a critical thinker.

Only 11,000 were submitted for tracing, and 5114 of those came from the US. That is 46.5%, and is a much better guess of the total % that came from the US. Now 5000 of those guns were not successfully traced, and it is likely that many of those did not come from the US (or tracing them would have been easier). But to state explicitly that NONE of them came from the US is sheer poppycock.

The actual % of those weapons that originated in the US is surely less than 90%, but it is also certainly much greater than 17%. This analysis has nothing to do with politics, just math and a dislike of articles that quote numbers inaccurately to mislead readers.

sully800 wrote:The Clarification
Quick Read -

The Clarification wrote:In 2007-2008, the Mexican government recovered 29,000 firearms at crimescenes in Mexico. Agent Newell reports that Mexico submitted 11,000 guns to the ATF for tracing. Out of that 11,000, only 6,000 were successfully traced – and out of that, 5,114, or 90%, actually came from the US.

The bottom line: only 17% of firearms used in Mexican violent crimes originate from the US.

That is frankly a terrible analysis. One could say that only 17% of firearms recovered after use in Mexican violent crimes (in 2007-2008) were PROVEN to have come from the US. To say that is ALL that actually came from the US is nonsense to a critical thinker.

Only 11,000 were submitted for tracing, and 5114 of those came from the US. That is 46.5%, and is a much better guess of the total % that came from the US. Now 5000 of those guns were not successfully traced, and it is likely that many of those did not come from the US (or tracing them would have been easier). But to state explicitly that NONE of them came from the US is sheer poppycock.

The actual % of those weapons that originated in the US is surely less than 90%, but it is also certainly much greater than 17%. This analysis has nothing to do with politics, just math and a dislike of articles that quote numbers inaccurately to mislead readers.

Indeed, 17% assumes without a doubt that any gun submitted for tracing or not able to be traced did not come from the US, which we can infer is not true given 90% of the ones they actually checked and were able to trace came from here. As was said, perhaps it is more likely that the untraceable guns came from elsewhere, but regardless 17% is likely way off.

Funny that like three people thanked Serbia for that figure.

My information, from interviews with experts in the drug trafficking situation was that guns crossing the border mostly originate in the US, meaning that its more a problem of us letting guns out than being too lax in letting them in.

I said nothing at all about the overall percentage of guns in Mexico that came from the US. Its just that if the guns used in crimes originate in the US (as they mostly do), its not really a border security issue. It's actually irrelevant whether the guns were bought legally or illegally in the US.

Talk of border lockdowns, etc are almost entirely centered on those entering the US, not leaving.

PLAYER57832 wrote:My information, from interviews with experts in the drug trafficking situation was that guns crossing the border mostly originate in the US, meaning that its more a problem of us letting guns out than being too lax in letting them in.

I said nothing at all about the overall percentage of guns in Mexico that came from the US. Its just that if the guns used in crimes originate in the US (as they mostly do), its not really a border security issue. It's actually irrelevant whether the guns were bought legally or illegally in the US.

Talk of border lockdowns, etc are almost entirely centered on those entering the US, not leaving.

I mean, maybe this is naive of me, but in a nation that is as big on guns as we are isn't it strange to assume weapons are coming from other countries?