Conquer Club

This post is all about Barack 'Hussein Lenin Guevara Ayatollah Manson' Obama's healthcare plans, why so many americans hate it, and why it is A GOOD THING.

1) We begin with the American dream: poverty comes from laziness! because all you have to do to succeed is work hard. Even though all the jobs have moved to china and the economy is screwed.

3) Nationalised healthcare takes taxes from my pocket and gives it to poor people. Poor people are lazy! They deserve to get sick. In fact, the free market will weed out the sick and lazy. it will kill them with treatable diseases, and it will make america stronger! It's basically survival of the fittest, except that is an evolutionaristic idea, which is almost as bad as being a socialist.

4) Socialism is a dirty word, a bit like 'homosexual' or 'democrat', because glenn beck told me so. But glenn beck changed his mind about the US health system! It used to be the worst in the world, but now it's the best in the world!

5) Glenn Beck did not change his mind because he believes what he says; Glenn Beck changed his mind simply because his success depends on pleasing Team Moron USA. He's like a weathervane that always points to stupid. And since the opposite of what glenn beck says is usually true, nationalised healthcare is A GOOD THING.

QED.

Counter argument

1) Poverty … real long term poverty … comes from dependencies. In the modern era, the biggest source of dependency is the Federal Government. Models of “welfare” that promote dependency promotes poverty.

2) So what happened to two? Can liberals count?

3) Nationalized health care takes money (via taxes) from my pocket and gives it to bureaucrats who sprinkles crumbs upon the poor people while at the same time ration the health care of others in order to “save money.” Once again, depending on the Federal Government is one form of dependency which is … one source of poverty. It makes EVERYONE POOR … eventually.

4) Socialism is a “dirty” word. As the great English lady once said, “Pretty soon you run out of other people’s money.” Ask Uncle Saxi if you want to know why from the other perspective.

5) Glenn Beck changes his mind. He does that. I think at times he is a lunar moth; when he is on the earth he longs for the light of the moon. When he is on the moon he longs for the light of the earth.

tzor wrote:Counter argument

1) Poverty … real long term poverty … comes from dependencies. In the modern era, the biggest source of dependency is the Federal Government. Models of “welfare” that promote dependency promotes poverty.

Poverty comes from the use of power to control an economy to the advantage of a few.

tzor wrote:2) So what happened to two? Can liberals count?

Liberals can't count

tzor wrote:3) Nationalized health care takes money (via taxes) from my pocket and gives it to bureaucrats who sprinkles crumbs upon the poor people while at the same time ration the health care of others in order to “save money.” Once again, depending on the Federal Government is one form of dependency which is … one source of poverty. It makes EVERYONE POOR … eventually.

Nationalized health care is the recognition of the civil right to health care -- just as we fund fire fighting systems and police departments.

tzor wrote:4) Socialism is a “dirty” word. As the great English lady once said, “Pretty soon you run out of other people’s money.” Ask Uncle Saxi if you want to know why from the other perspective.

Socialism is the political organization of people to protect the interests of working people.

tzor wrote:5) Glenn Beck changes his mind. He does that. I think at times he is a lunar moth; when he is on the earth he longs for the light of the moon. When he is on the moon he longs for the light of the earth.

yes

This entire conversation is proceeding on some weird idea that the US Congress nationalized healthcare, or that any meaningful change of any type occurred.

Unless I was asleep for the last 6 months all the capitalist whore Obama and his fawning sycophants in America's rubber-stamp parliament did is (1) institute a fine if you don't buy insurance from a Big Insurance mega-corporation, and (2) either streamline or clutter (depending on your worldview) a comic book-sized stack of regulations.

Last I checked Aetna, Blue Cross/Blue Shield, UHC and the rest of the gang were still all here.

The healthcare debate is yet another hilarious red herring where miniscule, cosmetic ideological differences between the two branches of America's one political party - the Institutional Democrat-Republican Party (IDRP) - are hyperinflated to grandiose proportions to feign some faux notion that Americans have real choice.

The left goes red in the face bloviating about the need for socialized medicine and defending their hero - when said hero only ever intends to deliver a $500 fine for non-purchase and a small stack of regulatory changes that will take effect in 5 years. Meanwhile the right expends months and months of energy trying to stop a $500 fine and a small stack of regulatory changes from taking place.

While that meaningless street theater was occurring, the two branches of the IDRP were "cooperating in a bi-partisan fashion" (what, in commerce, is called "colluding") on a whole bevy of things that were much more important. You all simply didn't have time to take notice.

saxitoxin wrote:The healthcare debate is yet another hilarious red herring where miniscule, cosmetic ideological differences between the two branches of America's one political party - the Institutional Democrat-Republican Party (IDRP) - are hyperinflated to grandiose proportions to feign some faux notion that Americans have real choice.

While this is an attractive and probably highly accurate analysis, your Hicksian worldview precludes moron-baiting because it means taking too large a step back from the fray - and I'm not posting here for the good of my health. As it were.

I've been exposed to both systems and I much prefer the Government run variety. When I went to a clinic here in Russia I kept wondering at the back of my mind is all this stuff they're proposing really necessarily or are they just trying to pad their bill? I couldn't be sure if they genuinely thought the tests they wanted to run were necessary or a way to "upsell".

Back home I've never had this concern. I know what they are suggesting is meant to make me healthy not pad the bill.

Baron Von PWN wrote:I've been exposed to both systems and I much prefer the Government run variety. When I went to a clinic here in Russia I kept wondering at the back of my mind is all this stuff they're proposing really necessarily or are they just trying to pad their bill? I couldn't be sure if they genuinely thought the tests they wanted to run were necessary or a way to "upsell".

Back home I've never had this concern. I know what they are suggesting is meant to make me healthy not pad the bill.

When say "here in Russia," I think you meant to say "here in the US."

thegreekdog wrote:

Baron Von PWN wrote:I've been exposed to both systems and I much prefer the Government run variety. When I went to a clinic here in Russia I kept wondering at the back of my mind is all this stuff they're proposing really necessarily or are they just trying to pad their bill? I couldn't be sure if they genuinely thought the tests they wanted to run were necessary or a way to "upsell".

Back home I've never had this concern. I know what they are suggesting is meant to make me healthy not pad the bill.

When say "here in Russia," I think you meant to say "here in the US."

No i meant here In Russia. As that is where I am. I was comparing my experiences with a private health care system to my experiences with a public health care system.

Baron Von PWN wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:

Baron Von PWN wrote:I've been exposed to both systems and I much prefer the Government run variety. When I went to a clinic here in Russia I kept wondering at the back of my mind is all this stuff they're proposing really necessarily or are they just trying to pad their bill? I couldn't be sure if they genuinely thought the tests they wanted to run were necessary or a way to "upsell".

Back home I've never had this concern. I know what they are suggesting is meant to make me healthy not pad the bill.

When say "here in Russia," I think you meant to say "here in the US."

No i meant here In Russia. As that is where I am. I was comparing my experiences with a private health care system to my experiences with a public health care system.

I'm so confused. You say in Russia you were concerned they were trying to pad their bill, but not back home? I thought you were from Russia?

I don't know what it's like in other provinces but the hospitals here seem more like they are trying to chase you out the door instead of looking for a solution to your problem. If it's not really obvious like you need surgury or are near death, go home we don't have enough beds here. Take it up with your family doctor.

I've had some really great family physicians but I've been to a lot more that I'd not like to go back to. The usual deal is "Here's a prescription, try that and let me know what happens."

Our system is also set up to make it difficult to pad things because it pays the Doctor based on patient volume so they're trying to get to the point as quickly as possible.

thegreekdog wrote:

Baron Von PWN wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:

Baron Von PWN wrote:I've been exposed to both systems and I much prefer the Government run variety. When I went to a clinic here in Russia I kept wondering at the back of my mind is all this stuff they're proposing really necessarily or are they just trying to pad their bill? I couldn't be sure if they genuinely thought the tests they wanted to run were necessary or a way to "upsell".

Back home I've never had this concern. I know what they are suggesting is meant to make me healthy not pad the bill.

When say "here in Russia," I think you meant to say "here in the US."

No i meant here In Russia. As that is where I am. I was comparing my experiences with a private health care system to my experiences with a public health care system.

I'm so confused. You say in Russia you were concerned they were trying to pad their bill, but not back home? I thought you were from Russia?

Lol Greek. I'm Canadian, I just happen to be in Russia for the summer so I changed my location to Russia, I go home in 8 days.

Baron Von PWN wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:

Baron Von PWN wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:

Baron Von PWN wrote:I've been exposed to both systems and I much prefer the Government run variety. When I went to a clinic here in Russia I kept wondering at the back of my mind is all this stuff they're proposing really necessarily or are they just trying to pad their bill? I couldn't be sure if they genuinely thought the tests they wanted to run were necessary or a way to "upsell".

Back home I've never had this concern. I know what they are suggesting is meant to make me healthy not pad the bill.

When say "here in Russia," I think you meant to say "here in the US."

No i meant here In Russia. As that is where I am. I was comparing my experiences with a private health care system to my experiences with a public health care system.

I'm so confused. You say in Russia you were concerned they were trying to pad their bill, but not back home? I thought you were from Russia?

Lol Greek. I'm Canadian, I just happen to be in Russia for the summer so I changed my location to Russia, I go home in 8 days.

Oh. Sorry about that.

heavycola wrote:precludes moron-baiting because it means

reported for baiting

Back home I've never had this concern. I know what they are suggesting is meant to make me healthy not pad the bill.

or meet a central efficiency quota (isn't that the reason Danny Williams said Newfie factory-hospitals were only good enough for the riff-raff which is why he was jetting to Miami to go to Mount Sinai?)

saxitoxin wrote:

heavycola wrote:precludes moron-baiting because it means

reported for baiting

Back home I've never had this concern. I know what they are suggesting is meant to make me healthy not pad the bill.

or meet a central efficiency quota (isn't that the reason Danny Williams said Newfie factory-hospitals were only good enough for the riff-raff which is why he was jetting to Miami to go to Mount Sinai?)

It isn't centralized, health care is run by the provinces. In Canada I have always felt I received the proper amount of care, the doctors have always properly and efficiently diagnosed whatever ailed me and then prescribed the right course of action that led me to be healthy again. So even if its a "efficiency Quota" or some other nonsense, it works and I received the care I needed as any Canadian would.

Factory and Newfoundland is a bit of an oxymoron, Danny couldn't imagine the province functioning without him so he went and got a fast and costly procedure so he could get back to work quicker.

heavycola wrote:This post is all about Barack 'Hussein Lenin Guevara Ayatollah Manson' Obama's healthcare plans, why so many americans hate it, and why it is A GOOD THING.

1) We begin with the American dream: poverty comes from laziness! because all you have to do to succeed is work hard. Even though all the jobs have moved to china and the economy is screwed.

3) Nationalised healthcare takes taxes from my pocket and gives it to poor people. Poor people are lazy! They deserve to get sick. In fact, the free market will weed out the sick and lazy. it will kill them with treatable diseases, and it will make america stronger! It's basically survival of the fittest, except that is an evolutionaristic idea, which is almost as bad as being a socialist.

4) Socialism is a dirty word, a bit like 'homosexual' or 'democrat', because glenn beck told me so. But glenn beck changed his mind about the US health system! It used to be the worst in the world, but now it's the best in the world!

5) Glenn Beck did not change his mind because he believes what he says; Glenn Beck changed his mind simply because his success depends on pleasing Team Moron USA. He's like a weathervane that always points to stupid. And since the opposite of what glenn beck says is usually true, nationalised healthcare is A GOOD THING.

QED.

this about universal health care or glenn beck?

wtf?

It's Cola baiting everyone again using overly dramatic analysis with as broad a brush as possible.

Baron Von PWN wrote:It isn't centralized, health care is run by the provinces.

centralised at the provincial level; Ontario is big enough it can engineer a bureaucracy that would make nations blush

Baron Von PWN wrote: In Canada I have always felt I received the proper amount of care, the doctors have always properly and efficiently diagnosed whatever ailed me and then prescribed the right course of action that led me to be healthy again. So even if its a "efficiency Quota" or some other nonsense, it works and I received the care I needed as any Canadian would.

have you ever suffered a serious ailment that required more than a stop-and-go visit?

Baron Von PWN wrote:Factory and Newfoundland is a bit of an oxymoron, Danny couldn't imagine the province functioning without him so he went and got a fast and costly procedure so he could get back to work quicker.

Why is fast recuperative treatment not available to rank-and-file Canadians, only the leadership caste who can afford to jet to the United States?

Hospital stays aren't pleasant, no matter now nice the hospital. I would think everyone would want the option to have the most modern procedures that minimize down-time rather than a "good enough for you" procedure that maximizes central efficiency quotas.

saxitoxin wrote:centralised at the provincial level; Ontario is big enough it can engineer a bureaucracy that would make nations blush

fair enough. I live in Quebec we've got bureaucracy down pretty good.

saxitoxin wrote:
have you ever suffered a serious ailment that required more than a stop-and-go visit?

No ailments but some serious sports injuries and I've been through surgery.I also have grandparents and family members who have been through with heart disease and cancer. They were all pleased by the quality of care.

saxitoxin wrote:
Why is fast recuperative treatment not available to rank-and-file Canadians, only the leadership caste who can afford to jet to the United States?

Hospital stays aren't pleasant, no matter now nice the hospital. I would think everyone would want the option to have the most modern procedures that minimize down-time rather than a "good enough for you" procedure that maximizes central efficiency quotas.

Newfoundland isin't a wealthy province and they don't have the same kind of money to throw around as say Ontario. They might have difficulty attracting the necessary specialists out there, it might not make economic sense to have such a professional in a small province like Newfoundland. They have to make sure they can treat everyone . All reasons why such treatment might not be available in Newfoundland. Similar rapid treatments are available in Ontario and Quebec (I know my Grandfathers have received the care, one in Quebec one in Ontario). I don't know why Dany Williams chose to go to a private hospital in the USA that's something only he could answer.

To an extent it depends on the province and what the province's health ministry chooses to prioritize. However no matter the ailment you will receive care, no matter your class.

Baron Von PWN wrote:I also have grandparents and family members who have been through with heart disease and cancer. They were all pleased by the quality of care.

Compared to what? I think the Thai food I get at restaurants here in Santa Barbara is delish. Then again, I've never been to Thailand.

saxitoxin wrote:it might not make economic sense to have such a professional

Yes, as I said, it's unfortunate when central economic efficiencies trump healing and care.

saxitoxin wrote:Why is fast recuperative treatment not available to rank-and-file Canadians, only the leadership caste who can afford to jet to the United States?

I'm pretty sure it's the same there. Money can buy you much nicer everything. I suspect the hospital Dan went to wasn't the first one across the border. It was probably the one a wealthy American might have chosen.

It's pretty simple. Gov't payout for example. By now, everyone is already familiar with the rationing of gov't cash. Often times the federal gov't will only pay the doctors/hospitals 70% of a bill for medicare or medicaid. I know here the Mayo clinic has stopped accepting medicare patients from certain states, Nebraska for sure.

Point is, I do not know how long doctors are going to stay in America when this 70% payout bullshit becomes commonplace for all medical expenses and procedures.

It's almost like "Hey, you know how you only get 70% of your social security benefits from the federal gov't IF you make it to 65? Now, we can payout only 70% of all your medical costs too! WOO HOO!"

I think I know what you're saying but.. they won't have a US&A for Doctors to go to for better pay if it happens.

2dimes wrote:

saxitoxin wrote:Why is fast recuperative treatment not available to rank-and-file Canadians, only the leadership caste who can afford to jet to the United States?

I'm pretty sure it's the same there. Money can buy you much nicer everything. I suspect the hospital Dan went to wasn't the first one across the border. It was probably the one a wealthy American might have chosen.

Danny went to Mount Sinai in Miami, a specialty heart center. They have just under 1,000 physicians on-faculty.

They have an Insurance search function: http://www.msmc.com/body.cfm?id=316

I did a quick check on different insurance programmes:

Accepts Medicaid (government poverty insurance): 90 physicians
Accepts Medicare (government elderly insurance): 139 physicians
Accepts UnitedHealth (largest U.S. insurance carrier): 153 physicians
Accepts CIGNA (2nd largest U.S. insurance carrier): 130 physicians
Accepts BlueCross/BlueShield (3rd largest U.S. insurance carrier): 154 physicians
Accepts No Insurance: 4 physicians
Accepts No New Patients: 2 physicians

As I have oft-said, "socialized" medicine can only work properly in a socialist state. I absolutely support socialized medicine but only if it is accompanied by the fist of the working class smashing the entire machinery of the democratic-capitalist state in tandem.
Either go all-in or go all-out. You can't start a camp fire in the middle of a swimming pool.

That said, the health programmes operated in Switzerland and Dutchland (as irritating as it is for me to say that) seem (to ol' Saxi) to do a far better job of it than, on the one extreme, the factory-hospitals of Canada and the UK and, on the other, propping high-quality for 90% at the sacrifice of the bottom 10% as in the US and Singapore.

2dimes wrote:I think I know what you're saying but.. they won't have a US&A for Doctors to go to for better pay if it happens.

This seems to be the reason the rest of the planet is so anxious at the outcome of a minor U.S. domestic policy matter!

(If I were an American that probably wouldn't inspire much confidence in me ...)