Conquer Club

Okay- I have an honest question for the hardcore religious individuals (or anyone else for that matter) on this website who will openly speak out against same-sex marriage.

I am a 20 year old male, 150% atheist. I was born and raised Catholic, and everything about the religion and its people opened my eyes to the negative affects religion has on society as a whole. Due to this rude awakening, and a newfound disbelief in a higher power, I was turned away from and will openly speak out against religion.

Now, my question is: Why do I still retain the rights to marry, yet a homosexual does not? I'm pretty sure the bible speaks out a lot more frequently against individuals of different religions (in fact- ordering the hapless readers to 'kill' individuals practice different religions- a very constructive idea) and those who speak out against God than it does against homosexuals.

So- why is it that all of you out there on the pickets lines speak out against homosexual but not me? Are you afraid to pick on a larger majority of people? Is it you figure you might have a chance with an oppressed minority of people? Yeah- the country had similar ideas against African Americans- the Civil Rights movement resulted in legislation that (for the most part) forbid the country from (legally) discriminating against this minority. Yes, I am aware that I cannot be married by a priest.

That does not stop me from walking out in the back yard, having my wonderful girlfriend whom I have been cohabiting with for the past year (something the bible also speaks out against- all you individuals who follow the word of God so 'closely'. I'm sure you all never lust over anyone of the opposite sex in any way shape or form, feel ANY greed with material possessions, yearn for someone else's material possessions, let your women speak during church ceremonies, do not eat meat on Friday year round, and (of course) stone every homosexual and person of another religion to death in the middle of the street like the bible tells you to. Awfully hypocritical of you to pick-and-choose which parts of this book to follow, especially when you ignore those that would affect you yet fight to the death over those that can shatter the civil liberties of a minority of people) and having my grandmother (a certified Justice of the Peace) marry us on the spot. I would at this point have ALL the same legal rights as a couple married in the church, without the church having done so.

Why do you believe a homosexual should not be able to take part in that? If it's because 'homosexuality is a sin'- then I guess that means all of you individuals out their lusting over your wife before you are officially married, being greedy or lazy, having worked on Sunday, etc.. etc.. should not be allowed to marry either then, because you have sinned just as much as they have. Do you support this war that results in loads of senseless murder? Did you vote for McCain who support capitol punishment- a form of murder JUST A SEVERE as abortion (go ahead- tell me God treasures the life of one human being over another- we all have the Lord in us according to the Bible- and if suicide is a sin because we are destroying a gift from God then so is capitol punishment).

edit #2: Tell me why you feel you need to preach against homosexuals being married? Do you feel not stopping this will ruin your chances at going to Heaven after you pass? If so: why aren't you speaking out against capitol punishment? Or against war? Both involve murder- something the Bible is not very fond of (depending on the book your reading, some are fond of killing those outside of your religion but we won't get into contradictions between books). Something you could try to stop in legislation just as much as homosexuality. If not: Perhaps you should consider not forcing your religious views on other through harmful legislation.

"Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD." (Leviticus 19:18)
-So as long as that individual (even a homosexual, murderer, or lusting teenager) is a practicing Christian (if that's how you would like to define neighbor- I would like to hope a higher power would preach peace and love to ALL, not just his select few), their lives are just as valuable.

How about a quote from your prophet Jesus himself:
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." (Matthew 7:12)
-Jesus was a prophet of peace, not hatred. If you would like to follow in his footsteps spread peace- NOT hatred. Sounds pretty simple to me.

Another argument you could state, is that the Federal Government should not be in charge of marriage because marriage is based in religion.

Marriage exists in EVERY culture REGARDLESS of religion. Some forbid homosexuality, some openly accept and support it (gee- there's a concept, equality). You may have an idea of religion written in your holy books, but it differs from area-to-area. Homosexuals cannot be married in churches, okay. That's a fine statute that I am 100% supportive of in the same way I support my inability to be married in a church. Homosexuals cannot be married WHATSOEVER- makes no sense. Why not outside of the church? You cannot provide sufficient evidence to counter that point.

I am studying in Social Work/Human Development and Family Studies and there has NEVER been study performed with proper correlation that could prove same-sex marriage having in any way shape or form a negative affect on anyone (including society, including the children raised in the marriage). If they are going to hell then so be it- but why should the not be allowed the same civil-economic liberties as you and I while they are alive? We supposedly have a separation of Church and State- so keep the Church out of state-related legislation.

If you honestly feel THAT strongy against homosexuals because of a few choice bible phrases- why don't you feel that strongly against atheists being married? I don't see any 'God Hates Atheists- Let's take away their civil liberties too' signs on the picket lines. I don't see ANYONE vying for legislation against me getting married. The government has placed in your hands the ability to live your lives how you choose- why would you choose to live them trying to oppress people? Live them to spread peace like your Lord and Savior did.

The post was meant in NO way to 'attack' any person individual. It was simply written to state my opinion on the matter, and potentially sway individuals with seemingly no logical motivation to start using their voice constructively. If I offended any person in particular, please respond and I will (if logical) apologize and explain in depth why I felt that way. If you still feel offended at that point, then you have an issue that needs to be worked out else where, and I apologize for having surfaced this issue. My girlfriend of over two years now has an incredibly religious family and I respect them, discuss my ideals with them, and have openly been accepted by them so do not tell me this was a 'flame' or 'attack'. If you feel there is logic in your argument, I would love to hear it. Please respond and let me know what you think, because I cannot for the life of me answer these questions.

Good day to you all, and thanks for reading. I'm sure I left plenty out that was meant to be said. but it was written spur of the moment. Edits may take place to add in more material.

First edit: I attended four years of Catholic High School. I have been through the Bible cover to cover, and am ready to play the quote game if you would like. It was a required text all four years, and a good 75% of my courses were based in it. Do not tell me I misquote or do not know what I am talking about when it comes to such matters, as I have been well versed on it for some time.

Haha. Good one. I never thought about how silly it was for us to be able to marry but not homosexuals. Dammit! Mind if I use your post or samples of it on other forums?

Quote it as much as you would like sir- it's really bugging the hell out of me

for fucks sakes... TLDR

You still have the right to wed because you are recognized as having the ability of having a natural family. You and your GF can knock boots and produce a kid. as such, you are then bound socially to both contribute to the well being of said kid. There is also the possibility that you can freak out, and actually come to Jesus. This would actually cause you to end up 150% Christian, which would be a 300% difference in what you are now, which is, impossible.

Truth be known, You are still "savable" and Christians would love to save you and your family too... should you actually procreate and produce one. Now, to be honest, I am guessing that no church worth their salt would "Marry" you and your bride unless you converted to their teachings or they just wanted to make the money and had a "don't ask, don't tell" rule. In that case, you would be free to go down to the local magistrate's office and "marry" there, but that is really just a legal contract known as a civil union. This is something that gays were, by and large, offered, but that wasn't good enough. Apparently, Gays are not willing to take small steps to accomplish their goals. they seem to have mistakenly thought that the liberal pendulum that ushered BO into office was also going to bring sweeping changes to the way that homo love was thought of in this country.

I really do not like responding to a post that it worded in such as way, as to assume that you can speak for what I believe. I will just say this. What you percieve to be the views of religious people, is not what I beleive. It is not what a lot of people beleive. There is already a gay marriage thread on this board. Maybe you should start by reading there, to get a better grasp as to that all the different positions on this issue that people from all sorts of different walks of life have.

--John

black elk speaks wrote: Apparently, Gays are not willing to take small steps to accomplish their goals. they seem to have mistakenly thought that the liberal pendulum that ushered BO into office was also going to bring sweeping changes to the way that homo love was thought of in this country.
...
In that case, you would be free to go down to the local magistrate's office and "marry" there, but that is really just a legal contract known as a civil union.

Ah okay, yeah- let me take away one of your biggest civil liberties, give you a half-assed resolution for a brief period of time SOLELY to avoid a mass series of lawsuits from civil rights agencies, and let me see how willing you are to abide. Saying they should do so is offensive and hypocritical. You would not do so- why should they?

The 'civil union' rights SOME states offer are FAR inferior to the legally binding marriage I could partake in- do not try and compare the two like they are viable economic/legal states.

black elk speaks wrote:You still have the right to wed because you are recognized as having the ability of having a natural family. You and your GF can knock boots and produce a kid. as such, you are then bound socially to both contribute to the well being of said kid.

Adoption is just as viable a family option as is me having sex with my Christian girlfriend. In fact- adoption is one of the more supported option by many religious folks as a counter to abortion. Here's something for you to toil over- would you rather the child be killed in the womb or adopted by a homosexual couple? No, they are not the only two options- but being adopted by a homosexual couple WOULD provide a larger basis for children without parents to live a normal life.

Do you really want me to get into the differences a child who grows up without proper nurturance would have vs. a child raised by a same-sex couple? Because I can ASSURE you that the child in the same-sex couple would exhibit NO difference than one raised in a heterosexual couple, yet the child raised without parents would have some severe developmental issues.

black elk speaks wrote:There is also the possibility that you can freak out, and actually come to Jesus. This would actually cause you to end up 150% Christian, which would be a 300% difference in what you are now, which is, impossible.

So the possibility that I MIGHT at SOME POINT become Christian and be 'saved' gives me the right to a legal stance and rights? Well by golly, it seems we have gotten rid of the entire separation of church and state we are supposed to have. There is no church that would marry me, and I would not be married in a church even if they would.

black elk speaks wrote:they seem to have mistakenly thought that the liberal pendulum that ushered BO into office was also going to bring sweeping changes to the way that homo love was thought of in this country.

Oh yeah, I should have realized you would at some point turn it into a political flame wars. BO is not IN THE OFFICE yet- he cannot propose such legislation. He has also stated that he feels marriage should be between a man and a woman but it is for the STATE to decide- not him. Something you religious folk should keep in mind.

lgoasklucyl wrote:-Jesus was a prophet of peace, not hatred. If you would like to follow in his footsteps spread peace- NOT hatred. Sounds pretty simple to me.

Thank You.

dewey316 wrote:I really do not like responding to a post that it worded in such as way, as to assume that you can speak for what I believe. I will just say this. What you percieve to be the views of religious people, is not what I beleive. It is not what a lot of people beleive. There is already a gay marriage thread on this board. Maybe you should start by reading there, to get a better grasp as to that all the different positions on this issue that people from all sorts of different walks of life have.

--John

I respect your views, John, and I respect the views of the individuals on that thread. I have a GREAT deal of respect for ANY religious individuals who can openly speak out against such atrocities on human rights (regardless of if this is the POV you're coming from or not).

I am simply stating my opinion against the legislation that is so fought after. Against the state of California (among many others) voting to ban the rights of homosexuals based on their religious ideals. There is no other reason to ban such rights besides religious ones- and that should not be a part of legislation. I do not make blanket statements about one religion or every practicing member of a religion, not "what you believe", but rather the opinion that has so clearly and hurtfully affected the legislation of this country.

Grooveman2007 wrote:

lgoasklucyl wrote:-Jesus was a prophet of peace, not hatred. If you would like to follow in his footsteps spread peace- NOT hatred. Sounds pretty simple to me.

Thank You.

Don't thank me- thank everyone who partook in publishing the many books of the bible to spread his word of love and peace. They were the ones who put his words down in pen, so that generations upon generations could spread his good word and be peaceful, loving, kind, accepting people....

black elk speaks wrote:for fucks sakes... TLDR

That quote wasn't half the length of most of the books in the bible. I'm assuming you haven't properly read those either, and simply follow the mainstream, negative onslaught that has come out of it?

I would have responded to this in my earlier post, only I wasn't familiar with the acronym 'tldr'.

If you're not going to read the post and take this discussion seriously, please stay out of the thread or I will report you for flaming. I want an honest discussion.

Thank you.

Snorri1234 wrote:Haha. Good one. I never thought about how silly it was for us to be able to marry but not homosexuals. Dammit! Mind if I use your post or samples of it on other forums?

Actually, I did point out much the same argument in the thread on homosexual marriage. But, who cares. It is a good argument .. the more it is used, the better.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:Haha. Good one. I never thought about how silly it was for us to be able to marry but not homosexuals. Dammit! Mind if I use your post or samples of it on other forums?

Actually, I did point out much the same argument in the thread on homosexual marriage. But, who cares. It is a good argument .. the more it is used, the better.

Honestly, I just thought of it for the first time a few months ago (apparently I can be rather absent minded ). I really which I could speak to the California Supreme Court that is hearing the case and ask them face-to-face why I should be able to marry. So I could watch their jaws drop and them be at a loss of words and viable defense.

lgoasklucyl wrote:

[beginning of thread -- to long to copy]

dewey316 wrote:I really do not like responding to a post that it worded in such as way, as to assume that you can speak for what I believe. I will just say this. What you percieve to be the views of religious people, is not what I beleive. It is not what a lot of people beleive. There is already a gay marriage thread on this board. Maybe you should start by reading there, to get a better grasp as to that all the different positions on this issue that people from all sorts of different walks of life have.

--John

This is actually pretty good advice. Though I warn you, that thread is pretty long.

From what I have grasped (tired.. will revisit later), of your post lgoasklucyl, your views seem pretty similar to my own, though I am firmly a Christian (protestant) and relatively conservative in my life views. I just don't believe in making everyone else live by my rules.

It does rather bother me that you lump all Christians in this same boat.

lgoasklucyl wrote:

black elk speaks wrote:for fucks sakes... TLDR

That quote wasn't half the length of most of the books in the bible. I'm assuming you haven't properly read those either, and simply follow the mainstream, negative onslaught that has come out of it?

I would have responded to this in my earlier post, only I wasn't familiar with the acronym 'tldr'.

If you're not going to read the post and take this discussion seriously, please stay out of the thread or I will report you for flaming. I want an honest discussion.

Thank you.

you assume too much. I am not a christian... nor do I give a shit about gay marriage. I have read most of the bible... but fount it was too self contradicting. I simply recognize people's right to practice what ever religion that they want too and if that religion frowns upon gay marriage and refuses to marry homo's, then so be it. Here is a thought though... take the idea of marriage out of the equation... make it civil unions for everyone and have the religious ceremony of your choice. If you are gay, you can surely find a christian gay congregation that will "marry" you.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

lgoasklucyl wrote:

dewey316 wrote:I really do not like responding to a post that it worded in such as way, as to assume that you can speak for what I believe. I will just say this. What you percieve to be the views of religious people, is not what I beleive. It is not what a lot of people beleive. There is already a gay marriage thread on this board. Maybe you should start by reading there, to get a better grasp as to that all the different positions on this issue that people from all sorts of different walks of life have.

--John

This is actually pretty good advice. Though I warn you, that thread is pretty long.

From what I have grasped of your post, (tired.. will revisit later) your views seem pretty similar to my own, though I am firmly a Christian (protestant) and relatively conservative in my life views. I just don't believe in making everyone else live by my rules.

The country needs more Christians like you who can speak out and defend the rights of individuals who cannot fight for themselves. I thank you for your support in these matters and in your bravery in being able to maintain your opinion in the conservative community.

black elk speaks wrote:

lgoasklucyl wrote:

black elk speaks wrote:for fucks sakes... TLDR

That quote wasn't half the length of most of the books in the bible. I'm assuming you haven't properly read those either, and simply follow the mainstream, negative onslaught that has come out of it?

I would have responded to this in my earlier post, only I wasn't familiar with the acronym 'tldr'.

If you're not going to read the post and take this discussion seriously, please stay out of the thread or I will report you for flaming. I want an honest discussion.

Thank you.

you assume too much. I am not a christian... nor do I give a shit about gay marriage. I have read most of the bible... but fount it was too self contradicting. I simply recognize people's right to practice what ever religion that they want too and if that religion frowns upon gay marriage and refuses to marry homo's, then so be it. Here is a thought though... take the idea of marriage out of the equation... make it civil unions for everyone and have the religious ceremony of your choice. If you are gay, you can surely find a christian gay congregation that will "marry" you.

I agree entirely with the idea of civil unions for everyone and individuals being able to choose the religious ceremony of their own. However, that's not the case in the country now. Individuals are left out of these legal rights based on a biological predisposition to be attracted to a different type of person. That should not be true, but it is. The person of my thread was not to flame anyone for being 'christian' or even assume as much of someone, but rather both hear why individual feel the way they do and potentially to help sway some individuals over to a side of respect and acceptance.

I'm not asking that individuals run out and form a coup against the Pope himself to allow homosexuals (who prefer homosexual or (100% honestly- I've been told this by homosexuals myself) 'queers'; not homo's. Unsure if you meant 'homo' offensively as many individuals do these days, so I apologize if you did not), but rather accept that they are not being married in churches, are not damaging anything or anyone, and that they deserve the same right as we do.

wwwwaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!! im an atheists christians r bad waaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!! worry about urself dont worry about other peoples beliefs. man u atheists are just like those far left liberals always whining about shit and pointing fingers bashing anybody who doesnt think like u. congrats ur thread gave that loonytune snorri a huge boner

JACKAZZTJM wrote:wwwwaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!! im an atheists christians r bad waaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!! worry about urself dont worry about other peoples beliefs. man u atheists are just like those far left liberals always whining about shit and pointing fingers bashing anybody who doesnt think like u. congrats ur thread gave that loonytune snorri a huge boner

You have been reporting for flaming outside of flame wars- you clearly did not read the post. I am not worrying about others people beliefs, but the affects that those beliefs have on an entire minority of the population. If you do not feel like reading and contributing logically to the conversation, don't drop flames. You are rather hypocritical to post this without having read ANYTHING of what I posted, set aside the title and the fact that I am atheist.

wow report me for saying something u dont like thats very tool of u shortin ur rants up next time so i can shortin up my fits of vomiting now that i think of u proved me right

waaaaaaaaaaa i didnt get the answer i wanted waaaaaaaaaa im reporting him

whining

JACKAZZTJM wrote:wow report me for saying something u dont like thats very tool of u shortin ur rants up next time so i can shortin up my fits of vomiting now that i think of u proved me right

waaaaaaaaaaa i didnt get the answer i wanted waaaaaaaaaa im reporting him

whining

It has nothing to do with the 'answer' you provided. You didn't provide an answer, but rather a bitchy response because someone made a logical argument you couldn't counter. I'm sure your 'fits of vomiting' lasted mere seconds in the fact that you clearly only read the title and first paragraph.

jackazz, we "atheists" are not the ones passing laws restricting the civil rights of gay and lesbian couples. Asklucy is simply raising the question of why that is true, and apparently so arbitrary. If you are so uncomfortable with that conversation that your only response is a juvenile flame, maybe you should look closely at your own ambivalent sexual tendency.

You know this country has a long list of laws that were unjust buy widely enforced. For example there were the "anti-contraception" laws. In fact, the famous Griswold Supreme Court case was a law suit brought by the Griswolds against the State of Connecticut because the state police broke into their bedroom and arrested and prosecuted them for using a contraceptive. That case found the right to privacy which ultimately became the basis for the Roe v. Wade case.

The have also been laws barring interracial marriage, homosexual conduct between consenting adults in private, the use of public facilities by African Americans, the admission of Jews to public universities, the the right to vote unless paying a poll tax, etc. All the laws have fallen, as will the bar on marriage by gays and lesbians.

mpjh wrote:jackazz, we "atheists" are not the ones passing laws restricting the civil rights of gay and lesbian couples. Asklucy is simply raising the question of why that is true, and apparently so arbitrary. If you are so uncomfortable with that conversation that your only response is a juvenile flame, maybe you should look closely at your own ambivalent sexual tendency.

You know this country has a long list of laws that were unjust buy widely enforced. For example there were the "anti-contraception" laws. In fact, the famous Griswold Supreme Court case was a law suit brought by the Griswolds against the State of Connecticut because the state police broke into their bedroom and arrested and prosecuted them for using a contraceptive. That case found the right to privacy which ultimately became the basis for the Roe v. Wade case.

The have also been laws barring interracial marriage, homosexual conduct between consenting adults in private, the use of public facilities by African Americans, the admission of Jews to public universities, the the right to vote unless paying a poll tax, etc. All the laws have fallen, as will the bar on marriage by gays and lesbians.

Not to mention that book of God itself speaking out against interracial marriage.... but we don't mention that in public. I thank you for reading, comprehending, and intelligently responding to my post. I would also like to note that Connecticut has come a long way from arresting people for contraceptive use- we're not one of two states to respect the rights of the sought after minority Our governor tried to overturn it- but we fought back and told her old right wing ass 'hellllllll no'.

I can assure you she won't be re-elected :

Huzzah. If you are looking for an interesting read, search for the "Gay Marriage" thread. It's an... interesting read.

Neoteny wrote:Huzzah. If you are looking for an interesting read, search for the "Gay Marriage" thread. It's an... interesting read.

Hmm.. I've skimmed through a few pages (beginning middle and end), and it seems like a lot of religious individuals flaming while producing no solid reasoning for church being oppressively written into legislature.

Welcome to "religious" thought.