Forced to be Christian

[mpjh]

From the 15th century on, Spain's Jews were mostly expelled or forced to convert, but today some 20 percent of Spanish men tested have Sephardic Jewish ancestry, and 11 percent can be traced to North Africa, a study has found.

"These values are surprisingly high," the researchers wrote in their report, published in the American Journal of Human Genetics.

I have found Jewish DNA markers in my family's DNA. We were all raised Portuguese Catholics. I wonder how I could learn more about the forced conversions. For example, what is a forced conversion?

[rob8888]

Well they were given a choice: convert, leave, or die. Apparently converting sounded good to most of them.

[mpjh]

So, if they converted they could keep their property, save the lives of their children, and continue to live. Is that the way is worked?

[Napoleon Ier]

Seems to me like a perfectly rational ultimatum to deliver to potentially malicious foreign terrorists living on Christendom's soil.

[mpjh]

So are you saying that Jews who lived in Spain for centuries were

malicious foreign terrorists living on Christendom's soil

?

[PLAYER57832]

So, if they converted they could keep their property, save the lives of their children, and continue to live. Is that the way is worked?

Essentially. However, their troubles would not be over. I believe in many cases, if they did not convert, they were generally allowed to leave or to live under restrictions. If they converted, however, then they were subject to the Spanish church laws of the time. (Remember the Inquisition?). If they converted and were considered to have done so under "false pretenses", then they could be burned at the stake or worse.

[mpjh]

Does anyone have statistics on how many Jews were forced to convert and then tortured or executed by the church?

[Napoleon Ier]

So are you saying that Jews who lived in Spain for centuries were

malicious foreign terrorists living on Christendom's soil

?

Absolutely. Spanish forces were still engaged in vicious warfare against mohammedan hordes as late as the 16th Century, and Jews were almost invariably their allies. We're not talking about senseless massacre, as did admittedly occur elsewhere earlier in the Middle Ages, but systematic cultural purification and securitization of re-conquered lands: the Authorities knew that the ultimatum would force more radical fanatics to leave Spain and prevent a Persian Gulf II type scenario emerging.

No-one was explicitly forced to convert, but non-Christians were, partly for security, and partly for the cultural hygiene of Spain, barred from her soil.

[mpjh]

I asked you about Jews who had lived in Spain for centuries and you reply with referenced to

mohammedan hordes

[sic],

cultural purification

, and

cultural hygiene

as a basis for forcing Jews to convert or leave the country.

Nappy you are not an intellectual, you are a racist.

[Napoleon Ier]

I've never stated that I'm either, and frankly I find your need to respond to me with this ad hominem pseudo-argument so early rather disappointing.

I suppose it's for mongoloids like you they need the caution for the added features on DVDs.

The opinions expressed herein are proposed historical motivations of the 15-18th Century Spanish State, and do not represent the views of the poster nor any of his affiliates.

Even if they had, I don't see how referring to culture could make you a racist, since that would imply a prejudice against an entire race as opposed to a non-racially specific group's customs and way of life.

[mpjh]

Seems to me like a perfectly rational ultimatum to deliver to potentially malicious foreign terrorists living on Christendom's soil.

So am I to understand that these are not your words and do not reflect what you think?

[Napoleon Ier]

Seems to me like a perfectly rational ultimatum to deliver to potentially malicious foreign terrorists living on Christendom's soil.

So am I to understand that these are not your words and do not reflect what you think?

No, but the few, select, decontextualised words you highlighted just a minute ago, Herr Goebbels, weren't.

Or am I under some kind of Inquisition here?

Now dear, we can either have a sensible discussion where we leave behind crass ad hominem, selective quoting,preposterous insults of the "evul fwench-fucker wacist!!!!11!1!" variety, and all your other favorite party-tricks, or you can once again demonstrate your incapacity for rational thought, get laughed at by everyone sensible on the forum, and be thoroughly humiliated. Now, which is it going to be, little child?

[mpjh]

So are you saying that Jews who lived in Spain for centuries were

malicious foreign terrorists living on Christendom's soil

?

Absolutely. Spanish forces were still engaged in vicious warfare against mohammedan hordes as late as the 16th Century, and Jews were almost invariably their allies. We're not talking about senseless massacre, as did admittedly occur elsewhere earlier in the Middle Ages, but systematic cultural purification and securitization of re-conquered lands: the Authorities knew that the ultimatum would force more radical fanatics to leave Spain and prevent a Persian Gulf II type scenario emerging.

No-one was explicitly forced to convert, but non-Christians were, partly for security, and partly for the cultural hygiene of Spain, barred from her soil.

So you are saying that these words are not yours?

[Napoleon Ier]

To clarify, the expulsions of Jews was perfectly justifiable on the grounds that there was and is conclusive evidence that many were collaborating with Morisco violent agitators, Barbary Coast raiders, and Ottoman forces having designs on Malta as a forward base from which to attack Spain.

[mpjh]

To clarify, the expulsions of Jews was perfectly justifiable on the grounds that there was and is conclusive evidence that many were collaborating with Morisco violent agitators, Barbary Coast raiders, and Ottoman forces having designs on Malta as a forward base from which to attack Spain.

Was that a basis to force them to convert?

[Napoleon Ier]

So are you saying that Jews who lived in Spain for centuries were

malicious foreign terrorists living on Christendom's soil

?

Absolutely. Spanish forces were still engaged in vicious warfare against mohammedan hordes as late as the 16th Century, and Jews were almost invariably their allies. We're not talking about senseless massacre, as did admittedly occur elsewhere earlier in the Middle Ages, but systematic cultural purification and securitization of re-conquered lands: the Authorities knew that the ultimatum would force more radical fanatics to leave Spain and prevent a Persian Gulf II type scenario emerging.

No-one was explicitly forced to convert, but non-Christians were, partly for security, and partly for the cultural hygiene of Spain, barred from her soil.

So you are saying that these words are not yours?

I'm saying, if only to promote a discussion more interesting that one that consists of you cyber-yelling "WACIST NATSI!!!!!11!1" at me the minute I present evidence you don't like, that the opinions therein are not necessarily mine, no.

[Napoleon Ier]

To clarify, the expulsions of Jews was perfectly justifiable on the grounds that there was and is conclusive evidence that many were collaborating with Morisco violent agitators, Barbary Coast raiders, and Ottoman forces having designs on Malta as a forward base from which to attack Spain.

Was that a basis to force them to convert?

A basis to ban them from the country, a legal loophole around which is conversion, which in turn is essentially what is meant by "forced conversion", yes.

[mpjh]

So are you saying that Jews who lived in Spain for centuries were

malicious foreign terrorists living on Christendom's soil

?

Absolutely. Spanish forces were still engaged in vicious warfare against mohammedan hordes as late as the 16th Century, and Jews were almost invariably their allies. We're not talking about senseless massacre, as did admittedly occur elsewhere earlier in the Middle Ages, but systematic cultural purification and securitization of re-conquered lands: the Authorities knew that the ultimatum would force more radical fanatics to leave Spain and prevent a Persian Gulf II type scenario emerging.

No-one was explicitly forced to convert, but non-Christians were, partly for security, and partly for the cultural hygiene of Spain, barred from her soil.

So you are saying that these words are not yours?

I'm saying, if only to promote a discussion more interesting that one that consists of you cyber-yelling "WACIST NATSI!!!!!11!1" at me the minute I present evidence you don't like, that the opinions therein are not necessarily mine, no.

So you wrote this just to jerk us around?

[Napoleon Ier]

No, to explain to you why the Spanish government might have felt the need to expel Jews and Mohammedans.

Still, when you're done doing what you just accused me of here, there's another thread we're all eagerly awaiting a response in from you on the subject of CCC paragraphs 846-8 and Koiné-English approximations for πιστευω amongst other things.

[FabledIntegral]

To clarify, the expulsions of Jews was perfectly justifiable on the grounds that there was and is conclusive evidence that many were collaborating with Morisco violent agitators, Barbary Coast raiders, and Ottoman forces having designs on Malta as a forward base from which to attack Spain.

Was that a basis to force them to convert?

At that time in history? More than generous. It's like picking out something minor that a complete authoritarian government did, while doing things all the while that are far worse.

What would it accomplish? The die-hard radicals obviously wouldn't convert - they'd leave or it gives the government reason to put them to death. Moderates probably would convert or simply leave. Also it would reinforce the authority of the church.

[Napoleon Ier]

If you're really looking to do a whole Christianity=Racism=Anti-Semitism=Evil skit, then Count Emich von Leinningen and the First Crusade are your buggers.

[mpjh]

To clarify, the expulsions of Jews was perfectly justifiable on the grounds that there was and is conclusive evidence that many were collaborating with Morisco violent agitators, Barbary Coast raiders, and Ottoman forces having designs on Malta as a forward base from which to attack Spain.

Was that a basis to force them to convert?

At that time in history? More than generous. It's like picking out something minor that a complete authoritarian government did, while doing things all the while that are far worse.

What would it accomplish? The die-hard radicals obviously wouldn't convert - they'd leave or it gives the government reason to put them to death. Moderates probably would convert or simply leave. Also it would reinforce the authority of the church.

And this is a good thing, a reasonable thing?

[muy_thaiguy]

To clarify, the expulsions of Jews was perfectly justifiable on the grounds that there was and is conclusive evidence that many were collaborating with Morisco violent agitators, Barbary Coast raiders, and Ottoman forces having designs on Malta as a forward base from which to attack Spain.

Was that a basis to force them to convert?

At that time in history? More than generous. It's like picking out something minor that a complete authoritarian government did, while doing things all the while that are far worse.

What would it accomplish? The die-hard radicals obviously wouldn't convert - they'd leave or it gives the government reason to put them to death. Moderates probably would convert or simply leave. Also it would reinforce the authority of the church.

And this is a good thing, a reasonable thing?

At the time and place? Yes. Considering that for centuries Spain and Portugal had been butting heads with the Moors and numerous other hostiles of the time that were attacking the Iberian Peninsula . And during this time, in many other parts of Medieval era Europe, many people really weren't given the choice to convert or leave. It was convert or die, and not always given the option to convert. Spain and Portugal were engaged in the Reconquista or, Reconquest of the Iberian Peninsula where the Moors had invaded a few centuries earlier and had given the Catholics at the time, convert or die. In military aspect, the Kings of Spain and Portugal could not afford Muslims within their borders causing trouble when they already had their hands full.

[mpjh]

Who is talking about Muslims? My question was about Jews. The Jews lived in Spain for centuries, never invaded, and were not a military force.

[muy_thaiguy]

Who is talking about Muslims? My question was about Jews. The Jews lived in Spain for centuries, never invaded, and were not a military force.

And as was stated earlier, they often collaborated with the Moors.