Manual troops not on maps with starting positions

[sudokU]

I think there are some maps which are meaninnless to have the manual troop deployment option. Those are the one with starting positions, e.g. Feudal War, New Wolrd. Don't know if there are more with these description, but in those ones is really senseless

[ronsizzle]

i am seeing alot of cheap ways to get this medal.

i propose deleting some maps from manual settings.

for example: city mogul, peloponesian, feudal war, etc.....

i see people playing these maps to get the medal like people were playing 1 v 1 terminators....

if we are going to give out medals, make them earn them!

[jefjef]

Yes. I agree. To easy to farm medals. Kinda devalues them.

[lackattack]

Merged duplicate topics.

Okay I agree this should be done.

So far we have:
Feudal War
New World
City Mogul
Peloponesian War

Should we list the maps where Manual Troops doesn't make sense or just block it on all maps that make use of starting positions?

[AndyDufresne]

St. Patrick's Day is another. And I think we've a couple more Starting Position maps that have come out during the interim since that list was created.


--Andy

[SirSebstar]

lol,
its how i plan on getting the medal, using poland right now. but yea, all maps with starting positions would be a good way to block cheap medals. just a wonder, what happens when peeps who have earned their medal before the change, do they keep em?

[natty dread]

Merged duplicate topics.

Okay I agree this should be done.

So far we have:
Feudal War
New World
City Mogul
Peloponesian War

Should we list the maps where Manual Troops doesn't make sense or just block it on all maps that make use of starting positions?

I'd prefer a list. Some maps make use of starting positions while still being playable on manual. If you allow a tackless reference to my own maps, my own Nordic countries map does this - it has starting positions although not many people see them unless they play manual... yet manual games can still be played on the map - there's just 9 territories that always start with 3 troops.

Then there's maps like 3rd crusade, with mixed starting positions and random drop - the same thing really... these can also be played on manual.

Of course you could make the feature count the territories that start open and compare them to the amount of territories that start neutral, but then where would we place the limit... Seems a bit problematic to me.

[Koganosi]

As thinking in strategy are you guys only talking about 1vs1.

Because in quads pelo manual is a sure thing wich can be used. I dont know in feudal maybe in trips it can come in handy but I dont thing so realy much. New World I havent played it in a while but I quess not to. In City mogul, manual never comes in handy. So goes for Poland II war in not team games.

So all rules aplly for non team games but you should exclude some team games then. Like I said with the Peloponessian war. If you want an example watch blitz playing it with his team.

Urs

Koganosi

[darth emperor]

Also AoR maps...when played by 4 or more players...

[Dako]

Manual always mean a lot when you are playing team games. Deploying equally on all player or stacking on one for a kill - strategy depends a lot for each map.

[lackattack]

Okay - so then we can't automatically block all maps with starting positions...

Regarding teams - if we agree that Feudal 1v1 is a problem, then 2v2 is no better - you are faced with the same choice to stack or spread evenly.

We need a list with Maps and # players to block.

what happens when peeps who have earned their medal before the change, do they keep em?

I think they should be stripped

[Master Fenrir]

City Mogul is a definite yes, the others I can see, too. Also, I believe that Jamaica is the same as City Mogul, where you have no troops to deploy. I haven't played Jamaica with manual, but one of my friends said this is the case.

One thing I would like to say, though, is that WWII Poland, although a conquest map, is greatly affected by the manual/automatic setting because there aren't as many neutrals between the bases as there are in Pelop & Feudals.

Those who know this map well will tell you there is a difference in gameplay when playing this map on each setting. I would request that you don't eliminate manual deployment as an option for WWII Poland.

[MrBenn]

what happens when peeps who have earned their medal before the change, do they keep em?

I think they should be stripped

Did you strip medals from the people who got them playing 1v1 assassin/terminator games?


If you're looking for maps to restrict, then there are more things too consider than simply the number of starting territories... it also matters how close the starting positions are to each other. If the only territories have fixed starting values, and the first round doesn't allow you to deploy (eg City Mogul) , then you should definitely skip manual deployment on them. It's a lot more complex on team games than 1v1, because while the options are generally a choice of spread/dump, particular drops may offer up a variety of strategies...
In effect, if the game-type does not allow you to drop any armies during the deployment phase, or you only have a choice of 1 terr to drop on, then manual deployment makes no sense. Anything that gives you a choice involves some degree (even if minimal) of strategic thought.

[Clackity]

Merged duplicate topics.

Okay I agree this should be done.

So far we have:
Feudal War
New World
City Mogul
Peloponesian War

Should we list the maps where Manual Troops doesn't make sense or just block it on all maps that make use of starting positions?

Completely disagree with New world. I play 1vs1 manual speed freestyle on New World and it make a huge difference in the strategy. In automatic you build for a bit but in manual I can drop all on one homeland and rush a homeland round 1. I feel that New World should be removed from this list.

[Royal Panda]

City Mogul is a definite yes, the others I can see, too. Also, I believe that Jamaica is the same as City Mogul, where you have no troops to deploy. I haven't played Jamaica with manual, but one of my friends said this is the case.

One thing I would like to say, though, is that WWII Poland, although a conquest map, is greatly affected by the manual/automatic setting because there aren't as many neutrals between the bases as there are in Pelop & Feudals.

Those who know this map well will tell you there is a different strategy for playing this map on each setting. I would request that you don't eliminate manual deployment as an option for WWII Poland.

Agreed on Poland. Would say that Pelop and the Feudals (less so) also have merit in manual deployment when playing team games. Have had some great tactical battles recently on Pelop quads especially against Blitz's team (we won 3/3 so I'm biased...) where a lot of the strategy is about where the teams CHOOSE to drop their initial troops in order to get an early kill.

This is also true of the feudal maps, though less so as there is a larger auto-deploy per round.

[Timminz]

I would say that manual deployments can make a difference on Feudal 1v1. It isn't much, and anyone with half-decent strategy would never do it, but it is slightly different. New World, on the other hand, makes a HUGE difference. Manual deployments, and first turn in a 1v1 sequential game is all but a guaranteed win on that map. I would suggest only blocking the ones where you have only one available option, such a Feudal standard/terminator/assassin games with 4, or more players. For 1v1, unless each player only starts with one territory, and/or each territory only starts with a single army, I think it should be left as is, because there is a difference, however slight.

edit- fastposted by MrBenn.

[Lindax]

I basically agree with Koganosi and Timminz.

No maps should be blocked from manual in opinion. It can make a difference, especially in team games.

Lx

[danryan]

The only maps that should be blocked are ones with no deployment. For quads feudal epic it makes a fair bit of difference to start with all deploying on one castle, while on New World it makes a massive difference. Pelo War as pointed out it makes a significant difference as well. Jamaica it has no effect, City Mogul the same, I believe AOR 1,2,3 also. That would be all I suggest.

[The Fuzzy Pengui]

if the game-type does not allow you to drop any armies during the deployment phase, or you only have a choice of 1 terr to drop on, then manual deployment makes no sense.

I think MrBenn hit it right on the head. It's exactly what I was going to say before I read his comment. Note that 1 territory to drop on would then eliminate all team games from being in this list, because you always have a minimum of 2 territories to start the game between your team. This means it would be unique for each map, and probably a bit more annoying to code then just removing maps from the selection list, but it would make it more fair in the long run and seems to make a lot more sense IMO.

[Gilligan]

Merged duplicate topics.

Okay I agree this should be done.

So far we have:
Feudal War
New World
City Mogul
Peloponesian War

Should we list the maps where Manual Troops doesn't make sense or just block it on all maps that make use of starting positions?

There's also Age of Realms, Monsters, WWII Poland, Feudal Epic and Jamaica. If you block it, you would also have to block it on certain numbers of players. For instance...If I were to play a 2 player game on Monsters, I start with 4 territories where Manual still has a legitimate reason for being there.

[Timminz]

After a bit more thought, I think it would be better to just get rid of the medal for manual deployment. Wouldn't that remove the issue?

[Dako]

Nooo, don't block monsters. manual is awesome there :-).

[Koganosi]

I basically agree with Koganosi and Timminz.

No maps should be blocked from manual in opinion. It can make a difference, especially in team games.

Lx

I meant like to say. Manual does come in handy in the most team games. In multiplayer games (wich concer more then 4) It isnt handy at all because you have only 1 starting position. I dont know if its hard to script that out. But for mogul manual has never an effect.

Urs

Koganosi

[lackattack]

Stickied this topic because we need feedback.

In effect, if the game-type does not allow you to drop any armies during the deployment phase, or you only have a choice of 1 terr to drop on, then manual deployment makes no sense. Anything that gives you a choice involves some degree (even if minimal) of strategic thought.

Well put! Unless anyone objects, let's use this as the criteria. It shouldn't be controversial

The question then is, how will this be implemented and how will cartographers maintain it...

First of all - can we allow all team games or will some maps not allow you to drop any armies even in team games?

Can we add a Manual troops Yes/No field in the maps database? Or a numeric field that has a min or max number of players? Or a select list with values like [Yes, Only Team Games, No]?

Perhaps we should now list all conditions where MrBenn's criteria are not met...

[Dako]

List with Yes, No, Team only would be best as I see it now.