[Rules] Allow permabanned members to appeal

[Army of GOD]

Yup- I like the idea of a petition system bringing a case to the attention of the mods, or perhaps to a sub-forum where it can be discussed. I don't see any major issue in discussing or dismissing cases on their own merits. We're pretty good at that already. See the cheating and abuse forum- plenty of sharp people around, plenty of discussion over the various merits of an argument. It's not perfect, but we can talk about why it's not perfect fairly reasonably.

So here's my tentative suggestion:

If a player can gather (let's say for the moment) 20 other posters for a petition to reinstate someone, then that poster's case should be up for re-examination. I would suggest either by a mod panel, or perhaps better, in a sub forum where people could raise objections before a final decision need be made.

The problem with the petition is that the banned user might not even know the petition is in existence. That's why I thought it would be better if the banned user would send an e-ticket to show that he's interested in coming back, and then maybe we could have a petition to see if the users actually want him/her back.

[safariguy5]

Yup- I like the idea of a petition system bringing a case to the attention of the mods, or perhaps to a sub-forum where it can be discussed. I don't see any major issue in discussing or dismissing cases on their own merits. We're pretty good at that already. See the cheating and abuse forum- plenty of sharp people around, plenty of discussion over the various merits of an argument. It's not perfect, but we can talk about why it's not perfect fairly reasonably.

So here's my tentative suggestion:

If a player can gather (let's say for the moment) 20 other posters for a petition to reinstate someone, then that poster's case should be up for re-examination. I would suggest either by a mod panel, or perhaps better, in a sub forum where people could raise objections before a final decision need be made.

The problem with the petition is that the banned user might not even know the petition is in existence. That's why I thought it would be better if the banned user would send an e-ticket to show that he's interested in coming back, and then maybe we could have a petition to see if the users actually want him/her back.

I'm fine with that idea. If the banned user files an e-ticket, have a referendum and have people argue it out.

[Army of GOD]

A sub-forum in the C&A forum might be a good place for the petition/debates.

[PLAYER57832]

Just saw this thread, not reading the whole thing today.
The max punishment is now 3 months? I am not sure that is always appropriate, but if so, then I would say all prior punishments should simply be reduced retroactively.

That said, I think we DO need permabans for people who really and truly do nasty stuff. Someone intetionally posting links with viruses, the most severe multis cases (this will have to be defined, but I mean people who have a lot of multis).

Also, I think we need some way to categorize or quarantine people who show over and over they are just plain nasty individuals to play with. (a lot of them wind up being multis, but that is irrelevant). I know those are seperate topics.. sort of overlapping the farming issue in some ways.

[Army of GOD]

Just saw this thread, not reading the whole thing today.
The max punishment is now 3 months? I am not sure that is always appropriate, but if so, then I would say all prior punishments should simply be reduced retroactively.

That said, I think we DO need permabans for people who really and truly do nasty stuff. Someone intetionally posting links with viruses, the most severe multis cases (this will have to be defined, but I mean people who have a lot of multis).

Also, I think we need some way to categorize or quarantine people who show over and over they are just plain nasty individuals to play with. (a lot of them wind up being multis, but that is irrelevant). I know those are seperate topics.. sort of overlapping the farming issue in some ways.

Multis technically are permabanned I think but that's only until they buy premium with their first account

[PLAYER57832]

Multis technically are permabanned I think but that's only until they buy premium with their first account

Unless its changed, they only get to rebuy one account. Then they keep getting banned.

However, I am not so concerned with the multis. The folks I want to see lasting permabanned are truly harmful folks. Multis are a pain, need to be curtailed, but not the same as putting viruses that can hurt people's computers or posting serious threats to people.

[safariguy5]

Multis technically are permabanned I think but that's only until they buy premium with their first account

Unless its changed, they only get to rebuy one account. Then they keep getting banned.

However, I am not so concerned with the multis. The folks I want to see lasting permabanned are truly harmful folks. Multis are a pain, need to be curtailed, but not the same as putting viruses that can hurt people's computers or posting serious threats to people.

I don't think it's necessarily carte blanche to allow everyone back. Appeals process would definitely require a good deal of community support to even be considered, and ultimate say still goes to the admins. I think having that option open is nice, and I think the standards of the community have changed as the site has evolved.

[Symmetry]

Multis technically are permabanned I think but that's only until they buy premium with their first account

Unless its changed, they only get to rebuy one account. Then they keep getting banned.

However, I am not so concerned with the multis. The folks I want to see lasting permabanned are truly harmful folks. Multis are a pain, need to be curtailed, but not the same as putting viruses that can hurt people's computers or posting serious threats to people.

I don't think it's necessarily carte blanche to allow everyone back. Appeals process would definitely require a good deal of community support to even be considered, and ultimate say still goes to the admins. I think having that option open is nice, and I think the standards of the community have changed as the site has evolved.

If it was added as a sub forum of cheating and abuse I think a lot of the people who check that thread and investigate claims would be around to check on the validity of the petitions once they reached quorum and were up for debate.

[PLAYER57832]

An appeal seems reasonable.

[Army of GOD]

Mods, have any admins taken notice of this thread/idea yet?

[rdsrds2120]

Just saw this thread, not reading the whole thing today.
The max punishment is now 3 months?

Just a little clarity on the rules, here's the most recent update of the ladder:

MINOR INFRACTIONS:

• First Infraction = Official Paddle Warning
• Second Infraction = 24 Hour Vacation
• Third Infraction = 72 Hour Vacation
• Fourth Infraction = 1 Week Vacation
• Fifth Infraction = 1 Month Vacation
• Sixth Infraction = 3 Month Vacation
• Seventh Infraction & Up = Repeated 3 Month Vacations

However, Major infractions work the same as they have done before, and the process directly before this one had a max ban of 6 months. So, perma-bans are still around, and assumably unaffected by the last alteration of the Minor Infraction scale. However, there may have been a time where Minor Infractions could have gotten you a Permaban. If that's the case, then I would support an appeal system for sure.

-rd

[HighlanderAttack]

I say yes unless it is Army of GOD

[Symmetry]

So I reckon we're at a fairly standard level here, not much in the way of objections to this:

1) An appeal process based on petitions
2) That those petitions be judged by posters and mods on their own standards in a public place
3) A decision can be made about the appeal

I don't see too much difficulty with this.

[Army of GOD]

So I reckon we're at a fairly standard level here, not much in the way of objections to this:

1) An appeal process based on petitions
2) That those petitions be judged by posters and mods on their own standards in a public place
3) A decision can be made about the appeal

I don't see too much difficulty with this.

Pretty much this.

[Symmetry]

There's plenty of stuff that can be messed around with with that, but that's pretty much a framework that most people can agree on and is at least workable and implementable.

[notyou2]

I like and support.

[Victor Sullivan]

A sub-forum in the C&A forum might be a good place for the petition/debates.

Sully like.

-Sully

[PLAYER57832]

Thanks for the update.

there may have been a time where Minor Infractions could have gotten you a Permaban. If that's the case, then I would support an appeal system for sure.

-rd

I think the issue is whether some infractions really should have been judged major or would be judged major today. I can think of a couple cases in particular, but its probably best not to mention specific names here.

[squishyg]

one thing that should be considered is that sometimes the public's perception of why someone was banned is not the actual thing they were banned for. so some serious dirty laundry airing may need to happen were this suggestion to be implemented.

[Symmetry]

one thing that should be considered is that sometimes the public's perception of why someone was banned is not the actual thing they were banned for. so some serious dirty laundry airing may need to happen were this suggestion to be implemented.

Fair point, but a ban should be a fairly open thing. I guess a solution might be simply to ask the person if they want to appeal as part of the process. If they don't want to come back, they can say so, and if they don't want to discuss their ban, it doesn't have to get to that stage.

Also, though, to add to your concern, because obviously this is a good issue to bring up, the dirty laundry might involve other players. And they might not want to have stuff aired in public.

Good point.

[Master Bush]

This seems quite fair. Does anyone know how many users this would even affect?

reverend_kyle!

[firsal901]

I agree, there must be a "court of law" for CC for major violations

[Symmetry]

I agree, there must be a "court of law" for CC for major violations

I don't think I'd go that far- it is after all a site that's owned and run as a business. It's also a site that prides itself on community. I don't want CC to become a democracy, and of course it never will, but working out the right balance seems to be one of the main points of the suggestions forum. The ultimate decision will always reside with the powers that be, but I think there should be an appeals process where members of the community can add their voice.

[The Voice]

Sure, why not? Although, I feel as though this would put a strain on someone...the judge(s)

[dakky21]

We all remember that guy that "forgot" that he had opened an account before, and got banned for writing about it in the forums. So, I say, YES, they should be able to e-ticket a support regarding their problem!