Ishihara and phantomzero [cleared] BG

[uckuki]

Accused:
Ishihara
phantomzero

The accused are suspected of:
Secret alliance, throwing game to clan buddy

Game number(s):
Game 10931598

Comments:
red is intentionally throwing game to blue. reason: they are clan buddies, and red
is dead last in the tourney, so tourney points can't help red while blue needs them
to improve his standing.
detailed explanation in the game chat.

[Lindax]

It's a tournament game, why not take it up with the TO and or the Tournament Department first?

Btw: I'm in it, and the games on this map are almost all turning into stalemates (no round limit). That may explain some of the behavior by some players....

Lx

[uckuki]

it's frustration. I asked them if they are in it to screw me so I don't have to bother trying.
they are all like ha ha that's funny, and then proceed even more insidiously, by pretending
to attack each other and then doing the suicide. and red is like 'I don't know what I'm doing'.
just don't like having two shafts up my anus without being asked first.

I pmed TO.

[MudPuppy]

it's frustration.

Definitely sounds like frustration with 3-player standoffs that leads you to make such claims without merit.

You say that Ishi (red) is throwing the game so phantom (blue) will win when it seems to me (through the fog) that Ishi is the current leader. At the end of round 18 here's the breakdown of regions & deployments (excluding spoils):
phantomzero - 23 regions, 8 deploy in Rd 18, 41 total deploy Rds 16-18
Ishihara - 47 regions, 21 deploy in Rd 18, 54 total deploy Rds 16-18
uckuki - 32 regions, 10 deploy in Rd 18, 39 total deploy Rds 16-18

In round 17, phantom (blue) deployed 20 troops; Ishi (red) then proceeded to take 6 of phantom's regions while you took none... dropping phantom's round 18 deploy by 60% to a mere 8... and then two days later you post a C&A report accusing Ishi of throwing the game to phantom?!?!? Seriously???

I'd like to chalk it up to a misunderstanding and pure frustration on your part whenever anyone tries to attack you in this 3-way race for position.... but your analysis is so far off the mark that I have to consider the posibility that it's an attempt to influence who they attack in future rounds by filing a C&A report against both of them in order to gain the upper hand. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt regarding your motivation... but it's pretty clear your accusations are completely baseless.

[uckuki]

no they are not. quite to the contrary they make perfect sense. but I guess
that's just lojalty to clan buddies that's clouding your judgement. no biggie, it happens
to the best.

I asked them to wink so I don't have to bother playing a game I can't win, and they are like ha ha you're funny and we have no idea what we are doing, and then proceed to pretend they
are playing a three way game while at the same time throwing the game. it's a shitty
behavior. he's stupid and his friend wins because of that. bullshit. I won't buy that for a
second. I won't shut up when being treated like an idiot.

if red is not throwing the game to blue then he needs to explain this: why would he tap
my stack from 82 down to 47 with me having 2 cards and not hit blue stacks with blue
having 5 cards and several stacks. WHY IS HE THREATENED MORE BY A PLAYER WHO
CAN'T ELIMINATE HIM?

they are cheaters, and your opinion is not objective in any way.

[4 U 2 NV]

3 way games are played to balance out the map until someone makes a mistake. any time someone builds a lead, the other two instinctively react to focus on that person. they attacked you the last few rounds and you're still deploying 8-15 men. i can't imagine how much you would have deployed if they didn't attack you.

phantom deployed 8 round 18. did ishihara need to attack him because he was more threatening at that time?

you build a lead in a game, it's instinct of any players to attack the leading person before he/she runs away with it. if they didn't you would have definitely won. but this way, both players have a chance.

quit complaining everytime you get attacked. you are on the board. it's gonna happen.

[Barney Rubble]

Perhaps Ishihara's off the cuff comment about uckuki 's choice of who to eliminate first sowed some seeds of doubt in uckukis's mind as to the fairness of the game .I do have to agree with him about Mudpuppys comment and their objectivity as he did take turns in this game for one of the accused .Three player games can lead to some tension amongst the participants though especially if one player feels somewhat picked on .
BR

[MudPuppy]

I certainly knew what my findings would be before I looked at the game because I know Ishi & phantom are both honorable players and wouldn't do what you accuse them of. However, I still took a gander to try to see what you saw... and I saw the opposite of what you claim. I know I won't convince you since you've already made your mind up about my clanmates and so I'll just end with an advance "I told you so" for when the C&A mods reject your frivolous claims.

Cheers,

MP

[MudPuppy]

I do have to agree with him about Mudpuppys comment and their objectivity as he did take turns in this game for one of the accused .
BR

I did, in fact, take a turn for Ishi when phantom (who was sitting for Ishi) asked me to take the turn for him in this game because Ishi was his opponent and it wouldn't be appropriate for phantom to play his turn.... The point being that's not something a player involved in secret diplomacy with his clanmate would bother with... He'd just take Ishi's turn for him and attack the accuser who amazingly has survived 19 rounds despite being double-teamed by the 'Goon squad.

2012-05-17 08:36:10 - uckuki: they can argue that they hit me for the last few rounds to keep or take bonuses or whatever bullshit reason they can come up with, but red needs to explain why he suicided into my stack fully knowing that he can't kill me (took 82 stack down to 47) except
2012-05-17 08:36:22 - uckuki: for the purpose of delivering me to blue.

You can see a lot more of the board than I can, uckuki, but I think to anyone (even "objective" observers) looking through the fog, red is far from dead. It appears to me he is in the lead. Yet you conclude his move to weaken your stack was a suicide?!?!

MP

[Ishihara]

I take this issue very seriously, and I will be more than happy to explain why, in the course of my last turn, I hit your large stack and knocked it in half (as well as my general strategy the last few turns). I'm working tonight, so you will see the defense of my turn by noon tomorrow (5/18).

[MudPuppy]

I take this issue very seriously, and I will be more than happy to explain why, in the course of my last turn, I hit your large stack and knocked it in half (as well as my general strategy the last few turns). I'm working tonight, so you will see the defense of my turn by noon tomorrow (5/18).

Your call, Ishi.... but I would not let this guy's paranoid accusations tempt you into revealing your strategy in a game that seems very much alive. I'd recommend sending it to BG privately tomorrow and then wait 'til after the game is decided before 'splaining it to your opponent. No need to reward his bogus C&A claim and insults by divulging your strategy to him.

MP

[Bruceswar]

Is this serious? Really?? Ishihara is a stand up player who wants to win at all cost. He would not toss a game to anybody . If there is a tournament points system going on and it somehow benefits him well then that is fair game. I cannot see what is going on due to the fog, but looks like ishihara is winning and not tossing the game to anybody.

[Night Strike]

In tournaments, throwing a tournament game to help yourself advance in the tournament is allowed. Throwing a tournament game to help someone else advance in the tournament would not be allowed.

[Lindax]

I know I won't convince you since you've already made your mind up about my clanmates....

MP

You seem to have done exactly the same.

Let's not forget that uckuki is a very decent and honorable player too. Whether he's right or not, I don't think he would post a complaint here frivolously.

If it turns out he's wrong and you're right, maybe frustration did indeed get the better of him, who knows. No reason to have a bunch of fellow clan members come in here and stamp him down in the mud.

The report is posted here now, let the C&A guys figure it out. If it's their issue to figure out, it may still come down to the Tournament Department.

Lx

[MudPuppy]

I know I won't convince you since you've already made your mind up about my clanmates....

MP

You seem to have done exactly the same.

Let's not forget that uckuki is a very decent and honorable player too. Whether he's right or not, I don't think he would post a complaint here frivolously.

If it turns out he's wrong and you're right, maybe frustration did indeed get the better of him, who knows. No reason to have a bunch of fellow clan members come in here and stamp him down in the mud.

The report is posted here now, let the C&A guys figure it out. If it's their issue to figure out, it may still come down to the Tournament Department.

Lx

Yeah, perhaps I have done the same... I don't "know" that he's made up his mind... but it certainly sounds like it to me. Uckuki appears to be making few attempts to look at the situation from other viewpoints as I have attempted to do so from his... though I admit I was unsuccessful in that effort.

Even after being presented with evidence that I think clearly refutes his claims, uckuki continues to characterize my friends as "stupid" "cheaters" exhibiting "shitty behavior" who are "throwing the game." I have absolutely no problem with the guy having his suspicions and filing a C&A report to have those suspicions investigated... That's his right and I fully support it. I do, however, have a problem with the disrespectful manner in which uckuki has chosen to do so.

I hope I'm wrong about uckuki having already made up his mind and hope he does apologize for his mischaracterization of these honorable players once they are cleared... but based on his behavior so far... I won't be holding my breath.

To be clear, I didn't "have a bunch of fellow clan members come in here and stamp him down in the mud." I have yet to speak to any of my clanmates (including the accused) about this C&A report... other than my advice to Ishi posted above suggesting he hold off divulging his strategy in the ongoing game. I've certainly been the most vocal and it's because I take this slander pretty seriously. It's just not cool and is very deserving of being challenged. I think my analysis of the game is accurate (or as accurate as it can be with the handicap of trying to see through the fog). My statements are meant, not to stamp uckuki into the mud but rather to offer support for clearing the accused of these false charges. I do believe the report is frivolous in that there is no proof whatsoever to back up the claims. I don't think it was posted maliciously as I believe uckuki truly believes the accused are guilty.... I just think the accuser has filed the report based more on his admitted frustration than based on reason.

MP

[Night Strike]

Yeah, perhaps I have done the same... I don't "know" that he's made up his mind... but it certainly sounds like it to me. Uckuki appears to be making few attempts to look at the situation from other viewpoints as I have attempted to do so from his... though I admit I was unsuccessful in that effort.

So he has to keep an open mind about their innocence because his conclusion is incorrect, yet you don't have to keep an open mind about their guilt because your conclusion is clearly correct?

[MudPuppy]

Yeah, perhaps I have done the same... I don't "know" that he's made up his mind... but it certainly sounds like it to me. Uckuki appears to be making few attempts to look at the situation from other viewpoints as I have attempted to do so from his... though I admit I was unsuccessful in that effort.

So he has to keep an open mind about their innocence because his conclusion is incorrect, yet you don't have to keep an open mind about their guilt because your conclusion is clearly correct?

I had an open enough mind to look at the game to see if it could be perceived as cheating... but having played alongside and spoken with Ishi & phantom for quite some time, I would have been extremely surprised to have seen evidence of cheating. However, if the evidence were there, I wouldn't turn my back on it.

I'm quite confident the C&A team will come to the same conclusion I have upon my review.

Has anyone other than the accuser come to the conclusion that this is a case of a secret alliance? If so, what convinced you?

MP

[Night Strike]

Actually, I haven't decided either way on this case. However, you're demanding that uckuki have an open mind about their innocence yet you don't have an open mind about their guilt. He looked at what happened as being secret diplomacy/throwing a game and you looked at what happened as legitimate. Why does he have to have an open mind but you don't? You can be confident that the C&A team will rule the way you see things, but why is uckuki not allowed to be confident that they will rule the way he sees it?

[MudPuppy]

Actually, I haven't decided either way on this case. However, you're demanding that uckuki have an open mind about their innocence yet you don't have an open mind about their guilt. He looked at what happened as being secret diplomacy/throwing a game and you looked at what happened as legitimate. Why does he have to have an open mind but you don't? You can be confident that the C&A team will rule the way you see things, but why is uckuki not allowed to be confident that they will rule the way he sees it?

Why do you continue to insist I don't have an open mind. Yes, it is in the realm of possibility that they cheated. Having known them as well as anyone can know each other on CC, I find it highly improbable that they did cheat... that's just not their style. But I tried to look at the evidence for signs of cheating.... I saw none. I stated, if I had seen evidence of cheating, I wouldn't ignore it. I just didn't see it. Please show me the evidence of their guilt that you claim I have closed my mind to... perhaps you can enlighten me.

[uckuki]

hello all

if any of the comments I wrote have made people feel hurt that wasn't my intention at all. on other hand,
how do you call someone a cheater without pointing a finger? to correct Mud: I did call them cheaters
because that's the subject of this topic, but I did not call them stupid, but being treated like I'm the stupid one.
if 'shitty behavior' reference isn't appropriate, lets substitute it with ... mischievous?

the primary purpose of my post was to vent out the frustration. still, that doesn't mean I'm wrong. red's move
just didn't make sense. I don't see how he could benefit from it, unless there's some grand strategy I haven't
heard of. maybe they aren't cheating? maybe red is acting subliminally, I don't know? it's impossible for me
to have a smoking gun and my accusation is based solely on the actions in the game. red can do whatever he
thinks might advance his chances, but he shouldn't advances other player's chances. that sort of behavior
kills the game. I hope I'm wrong about it. for me the winning is secondary to having a good and unpredictable game.

I know 3 way games can be nasty, often there's no other way to go about it. right now, I'm playing in an all maps
tourney with 3 players and each game we go guns blazing, each of us getting bloodied and so far none of us complained
once. moreover, I want it that way because the few games where we did slow down ended up in stalemates. so, I
have no problem with 3 way game being messy, they should be.

[MudPuppy]

to correct Mud: ...I did not call them stupid

he's stupid and his friend wins because of that.

True... you can't accuse someone of cheating without accusing them of cheating... but you can word it more like "their actions appear suspicious and I'd like it investigated." Anyway, I much more appreciate the tone of uckuki's last post than his former ones. I'm more than happy to offer my apologies to uckuki if anything I may have said was over the top and I'll certainly apologize to uckuki if the accused are found guilty.

The most compelling evidence offered is that Ishi trimmed uckuki's 82-stack by 35 troops to 47. This is an escalating game on a big map. The next set of cashed spoils will fetch 80 troops. These players are currently deploying an average of 37 troops a round (including a 70 average for the last 3 cashes). So this trim of 35 troops that was characterized as a "suicide" equates to less than one round of deployment... if this were a no spoils game on a standard-sized map, that would be like saying trimming an 8-stack down to 4 is a suicide.

MP

[phantomzero]

Well I just saw this now and unfortunately don't have the time to properly reply with something more long winded.

All I can say is that there is no secret diplomacy or conspiracy in this game. Period.

[Lindax]

To be clear, I didn't "have a bunch of fellow clan members come in here and stamp him down in the mud." I have yet to speak to any of my clanmates (including the accused) about this C&A report...

MP

To be clear as well: I didn't say that you did.

I was speaking in the general sense that they came in here, not that you made them do that.

Lx

[MudPuppy]

To be clear, I didn't "have a bunch of fellow clan members come in here and stamp him down in the mud." I have yet to speak to any of my clanmates (including the accused) about this C&A report...

MP

To be clear as well: I didn't say that you did.

I was speaking in the general sense that they came in here, not that you made them do that.

Lx

I know... just clarifying in case anyone got the impression there was some kind of organized "rally around Ishi & phantom" effort in our clan... which I have seen occur in C&A from time to time. I just noticed their names in the thread and had a look... and really it was only NV & I (unless you are including the accused) who posted. I'm not sure two 'Goons qualifies as a "bunch."

[Squirly]

IMO, ID and FOED have always been very cool with each other so this accusation from a member of FOED takes me by surprise and is disappointing to say the least.

Many people avoid 3 player games for a reason.