Windows 8

[AndyDufresne]

Hm, quick. Someone develop one of those "I hate you" buddy-comedies, like Grumpy Old Men, and we can have Natty and DiM star in it.






--Andy

[DiM]

Hm, quick. Someone develop one of those "I hate you" buddy-comedies, like Grumpy Old Men, and we can have Natty and DiM star in it.

dibs on sophia lauren.

[AndyDufresne]

Hm, quick. Someone develop one of those "I hate you" buddy-comedies, like Grumpy Old Men, and we can have Natty and DiM star in it.

dibs on sophia lauren.

Dibs awarded, per the International Accord on Dibs, Shotguns, and Finders Keepers.


--Andy

[Night Strike]

This is a great article/review about Windows 8. It's definitely long though, as it covers pretty much everything. Fantastic read if you are interested.
Fear and Loathing and Windows 8
http://mobileopportunity.blogspot.com.a ... ows-8.html

That review makes me really not want to go to Windows 8. I liked Vista over XP and really like 7 but that article and those descriptions make me really apprehensive about 8. Especially since I've just recently gotten into the tablet market but still prefer having a regular keyboard and mouse.

[natty dread]

obviously these facts can't be considered evidence but ONE allegedly tortured person is proof enough that ALL foxconn employees are tortured.

Um, no, I never said all foxconn employees are tortured. Wtf are you smoking?

And yes, even one person being tortured is one too many.

like the huge suicide rate you complained about and it turned out suicide rate amongst foxconn employees is actually 95% lower than the country's average according to clear facts.

Doesn't really matter if the suicide rate is lower or higher, it was never a major part of my argument - the fact is 1) the workers are protesting and 2) the workers complain about "inhumane working conditions" - clearly they don't think working at Foxconn is "heaven on earth" as you put it.

i think all those drugs you say you did when you were younger really took their toll on your brain. might wanna go get it checked. of course you'll probably argue with the doctor's diagnosis and tell him he's an idiot an you know better...

Wow, you're a real asshole Dim. You had to go and make it personal, didn't you?

Maybe you should take your head out of your ass before you open your mouth, you know?

[DiM]

obviously these facts can't be considered evidence but ONE allegedly tortured person is proof enough that ALL foxconn employees are tortured.

Um, no, I never said all foxconn employees are tortured. Wtf are you smoking?

And yes, even one person being tortured is one too many.

who says that person was really tortured? there were allegations and rumours. as far as i know there's no real evidence to support this.

like the huge suicide rate you complained about and it turned out suicide rate amongst foxconn employees is actually 95% lower than the country's average according to clear facts.

Doesn't really matter if the suicide rate is lower or higher, it was never a major part of my argument

of course real evidence doesn't matter. now it wasn't a major part of your argument. way to save face.
it's not like you had a whole post dedicated to the suicides complete with quotes from some crappy, obviously subjective, source.

the fact is 1) the workers are protesting and 2) the workers complain about "inhumane working conditions" - clearly they don't think working at Foxconn is "heaven on earth" as you put it.

actually just 150 people protested. 150 people out of 1.2 milion. that's 0.0001%. so yeah, if 0.0001% are protesting then probably everybody is unhappy, right?
it's like if you get a few buddies and protest in your nearest square and the tommorrow newspaper says "riots and mass protests in finland"

and guess what happened to the 150 workers? 45 resigned and 105 returned to work. so if the conditions were really that inhumane would the majority of the protesters return to work the next day?

i think all those drugs you say you did when you were younger really took their toll on your brain. might wanna go get it checked. of course you'll probably argue with the doctor's diagnosis and tell him he's an idiot an you know better...

Wow, you're a real asshole Dim. You had to go and make it personal, didn't you?

Maybe you should take your head out of your ass before you open your mouth, you know?

sorry to disappoint you but i'm not a contortionist. my head and ass are where they're supposed to be. you might want to check yours though.

[natty dread]

who says that person was really tortured? there were allegations and rumours. as far as i know there's no real evidence to support this.

Maybe we should ask him. Oh wait we can't, he killed himself.

and guess what happened to the 150 workers? 45 resigned and 105 returned to work. so if the conditions were really that inhumane would the majority of the protesters return to work the next day?

Yeah, it's not like they have a choice - stay away from work and starve or go back to work.

Do you have any idea what kind of environment these people live in - say or do one wrong thing and the government is knocking on your door. How many people are willing to risk their lives by attending a protest? The fact that even so many people protested shows they have been pushed to the edge, if they're willing to risk everything, risk their lives in order to get a least slightly better conditions for their workplace.

[DiM]

who says that person was really tortured? there were allegations and rumours. as far as i know there's no real evidence to support this.

Maybe we should ask him. Oh wait we can't, he killed himself.

oh wait. so that means still no evidence of torture whatsoever. hmm.
but ofcourse our only logical deduction can be that he was certainly tortured and that obviously many others were tortured too.

and guess what happened to the 150 workers? 45 resigned and 105 returned to work. so if the conditions were really that inhumane would the majority of the protesters return to work the next day?

Yeah, it's not like they have a choice - stay away from work and starve or go back to work.

STOP. WOW. let me read that again.
yep. it's exactly as i said all along. working at foxconn is a better alternative than not working all. so foxconn is actually making their lives better. interesting.

Do you have any idea what kind of environment these people live in - say or do one wrong thing and the government is knocking on your door. How many people are willing to risk their lives by attending a protest? The fact that even so many people protested shows they have been pushed to the edge, if they're willing to risk everything, risk their lives in order to get a least slightly better conditions for their workplace.

i kinda do know what sort of environment they live in. i actually did live in a similar environment. the thing is the government won't knock at your door for protesting vs foxconn. they don't care about that. they'll come and make you disappear if you say something about the government. it it were as you say then all 150 workers would have to be replaced cause they'd be dead or in jail. but apparently they're all well. so no, they did not risk their lives by going on this protest, that's just another one of your exaggerations and misconceptions like "incredible suicide rates, mass protests and inhuman working conditions"

[natty dread]

STOP. WOW. let me read that again.
yep. it's exactly as i said all along. working at foxconn is a better alternative than not working all. so foxconn is actually making their lives better. interesting.

So if you're poor, and I give you money so that I can f*ck you in the ass with a table leg every morning, it's totally OK because the alternative would be that you wouldn't get money from me?

[Aradhus]

When it comes to computers I'm not a fan of change. In my experience "change" just means more new problems. I'd rather battle on with the operating system I have now for as long as that's possible, and then change when I have no choice, than change now and deal with all the hassle and rigmarole.

[DiM]

STOP. WOW. let me read that again.
yep. it's exactly as i said all along. working at foxconn is a better alternative than not working all. so foxconn is actually making their lives better. interesting.

So if you're poor, and I give you money so that I can f*ck you in the ass with a table leg every morning, it's totally OK because the alternative would be that you wouldn't get money from me?

another example of idiotic logic courtesy of natty dread.

the working conditions at foxconn are better than many other workplaces in china. also the wages are better than many other workplaces in china.

what you fail to understand is that the working conditions and wages in other countries are irrelevant. foxconn's profits are also irrelevant. all that matters is that foxconn has some of the most desired jobs in china. the fact that you would not even consider working in such conditions and for that amount of money is, again, irrelevant.

[BigBallinStalin]

When it comes to computers I'm not a fan of change. In my experience "change" just means more new problems. I'd rather battle on with the operating system I have now for as long as that's possible, and then change when I have no choice, than change now and deal with all the hassle and rigmarole.

Sorry, but you're off topic. At the moment, the discussion is about the good and bads of voluntary labor agreements in China.

natty dread is demanding that work conditions should be the same in civilized Western Europe; whereas, DiM is saying that it's as good as it gets for now in China.

/end terrible_summary

[rdsrds2120]

If there's another page of this, I'ma gonna split it. Gotta keep them side topic factions in check before they grow too powerful.

-rd

[BigBallinStalin]

Why? Just split it if and only if the OP requests it.


Besides, their topic is somewhat related. Natty dread is defending the impeccable reputation of the Linux producers while protesting against the evil empire of Microsoft and how they're providing relatively more valuable jobs to Chinese people.

[bedub1]

The funny thing is I'm not even reading their conversation. There was a thread awhile ago about foxcom and chineese workers and how evil apple is. This is about windows 8. Which is a software application made by india/US software engineers, not by chineese foxcom workers.

[DiM]

The funny thing is I'm not even reading their conversation. There was a thread awhile ago about foxcom and chineese workers and how evil apple is. This is about windows 8. Which is a software application made by india/US software engineers, not by chineese foxcom workers.

in a weird and twisted natty dread way, this whole thing is actually related.
you see, natty dread recently became a linux fan after many years of using windows. but praising linux's merits is not enough he also has to bash windows. hence windows 8 will be shit because is made by satan's company, microsoft.
since he was a windows user he was used to bash apple saying apple is brainwashing people into buying expensive crap.
so basically apple is also owned by satan. foxconn surely is owned by satan because it manufactures for apple, for microsoft and other satanic companies.

i dare you to say photoshop is better than gimp and natty will come and tell you how adobe is somehow related to satan too.

i think it's only a matter of time before he somehow finds a way to relate hitler to all this and conclude that all microsoft/apple/adobe customers are nazis.

[natty dread]

The funny thing is I'm not even reading their conversation. There was a thread awhile ago about foxcom and chineese workers and how evil apple is. This is about windows 8. Which is a software application made by india/US software engineers, not by chineese foxcom workers.

in a weird and twisted natty dread way, this whole thing is actually related.
you see, natty dread recently became a linux fan after many years of using windows. but praising linux's merits is not enough he also has to bash windows. hence windows 8 will be shit because is made by satan's company, microsoft.
since he was a windows user he was used to bash apple saying apple is brainwashing people into buying expensive crap.
so basically apple is also owned by satan. foxconn surely is owned by satan because it manufactures for apple, for microsoft and other satanic companies.

i dare you to say photoshop is better than gimp and natty will come and tell you how adobe is somehow related to satan too.

i think it's only a matter of time before he somehow finds a way to relate hitler to all this and conclude that all microsoft/apple/adobe customers are nazis.

Nice fantasy fiction there. But I already know this is a thing you do... you're afraid to argue against my actual points, so you construct these fantasy scenarios in your head which makes it easier for you to cope with the fact that you're wrong about something.

I don't bash windows because I want to do that, or out of some weird tribal us-vs-them instinct. Hell, I'd be glad if micro$oft started making some great operating systems, started caring about the freedom of users, and adopted sustainable and ethical business practices. I'd be overjoyed.

Sadly, so far it hasn't been the case, and in fact anyone with at least half a brain who doesn't live with fingers in ears and eyes constantly blindfolded can see that micro$oft is doing downright horrible things. The only reason their OS is so popular is because they have used every dirty trick in the book during their history to shut down all competition. They make crappy systems that are full of bloated code and bugs, and even intentional backdoors. They attempt to wrest the control of computers away from their users. And... well, I could go on and on, but I know you won't listen so I won't bother.

The fact is though, I bash micro$oft and apple because they deserve it. And I started bashing them long before I ever used linux. Maybe not as vocally, but I've certainly never been a fan of micro$oft, nor have I ever advocated their products. Feel free to prove me wrong any time.

[natty dread]

http://news.flanders-china.be/research- ... p%E2%80%9D

Foxconn has been described as a “labor camp” that severely violates China’s labour laws and abuses workers physically and mentally, in a research report jointly produced by 20 universities in Hong Kong, Taiwan and the mainland. The 83-page report draws on interviews with more than 1,800 workers from 12 Foxconn-owned factories in nine Chinese cities. It found fresh evidence that the Taiwanese company forces assembly-line employees to work double or triple the legal limit on overtime. It describes a Spartan management style, extensive employment of teenage students, and failure to report a considerable number of industrial injuries for which workers were unable to receive statutory compensation. It found that at least 17 Foxconn workers had attempted to commit suicide since January – of whom 13 died – rather than the 14 suicide attempts widely reported by the Hong Kong media. In a joint open letter, researchers from the 20 universities urged Terry Gou – Chairman of Foxconn’s Taiwanese parent company, Hon Hai Precision Industry – to respect workers’ legal rights and fulfil the company’s social responsibilities. The researchers reported that employees were forced to work 80 to 100 hours of overtime per month. Under China’s labor law, the legal limit on overtime is 36 hours a month. Tens of thousands of teenage vocational school students, many without the protection of labor contracts or statutory industrial insurance, work under the same conditions in Foxconn’s factories, the South China Morning Post reports. Foxconn has for the second time this year increased the salaries of workers at its giant Shenzhen plant. In June, Foxconn increased salaries by 30%, from CNY900 to CNY1,200 and now raised them further to CNY2,000. The legal minimum wage in Shenzhen is CNY1,100 per month.

Heaven on earth...

[DiM]

http://news.flanders-china.be/research- ... p%E2%80%9D

Foxconn has been described as a “labor camp” that severely violates China’s labour laws and abuses workers physically and mentally, in a research report jointly produced by 20 universities in Hong Kong, Taiwan and the mainland. The 83-page report draws on interviews with more than 1,800 workers from 12 Foxconn-owned factories in nine Chinese cities. It found fresh evidence that the Taiwanese company forces assembly-line employees to work double or triple the legal limit on overtime. It describes a Spartan management style, extensive employment of teenage students, and failure to report a considerable number of industrial injuries for which workers were unable to receive statutory compensation. It found that at least 17 Foxconn workers had attempted to commit suicide since January – of whom 13 died – rather than the 14 suicide attempts widely reported by the Hong Kong media. In a joint open letter, researchers from the 20 universities urged Terry Gou – Chairman of Foxconn’s Taiwanese parent company, Hon Hai Precision Industry – to respect workers’ legal rights and fulfil the company’s social responsibilities. The researchers reported that employees were forced to work 80 to 100 hours of overtime per month. Under China’s labor law, the legal limit on overtime is 36 hours a month. Tens of thousands of teenage vocational school students, many without the protection of labor contracts or statutory industrial insurance, work under the same conditions in Foxconn’s factories, the South China Morning Post reports. Foxconn has for the second time this year increased the salaries of workers at its giant Shenzhen plant. In June, Foxconn increased salaries by 30%, from CNY900 to CNY1,200 and now raised them further to CNY2,000. The legal minimum wage in Shenzhen is CNY1,100 per month.

Heaven on earth...

awesome. an article from 2 years ago.
obviously the lengthy analysis i posted a while back, done by MIT was dismissed because all economists are liars.
i wonder if the guys at the flanders-chinese chamber of commerce (from your source) are also economists.

so let's see the myths:
1. the suicide rate is very high. actually at foxconn is 95% lower than the country average. and this is calculated for 2010 when they had a record of 14 suicides. in 2009 and 2011 there were only 4 suicides. so nearly 99% better than the country average. myth busted.
2. omg the poor workers do too much overtime. well guess what? because of the FLA, foxconn has lowered the number of overtime hours each worker can have (to 36 per month) and now foxconn workers are protesting because they WANT MORE OVERTIME. second myth also busted.
3. foxconn workers are desperate and miserable. interesting. if that were true then i guess nobody would want to work there. and yet there are huge lines of unemployed people that come to those factories looking for a job.

in the end (because this really is the end, i do not want to continue a pointless argument where you talk nothing but nonsense)
so, in the end i'll let you with 2 quotes that sum up pretty well my feelings towards this:

Would I want to work in a Chinese factory producing Apple products? Of course not! Would I rather work in a Chinese factory producing Apple products than perform backbreaking subsistence farming? Probably! And this is why you’re not going to see me get too worked up about working conditions in extremely poor countries: well-meaning liberal worrywarting aside, factory work is usually much, much better than the alternative.

I’m glad that many Americans people are repulsed by the idea of importing products made by barely paid, barely legal workers in dangerous factories. Yet sweatshops are only a symptom of poverty, not a cause, and banning them closes off one route out of poverty.

sources:
http://sonnybunch.com/conditions-at-fox ... ernatives/
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/15/opini ... .html?_r=2
http://go.bloomberg.com/tech-blog/2012- ... t-EmADb1cu
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/ ... kers-make/
http://micgadget.com/21420/thousands-li ... zhengzhou/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall ... n-context/

and a few others that i already posted or have forgotten about.

[bedub1]

Bill Gates rules!
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-57449 ... &tag=title
Steve Jobs was a total douchbag.

It sucks that Bill Gates left Microsoft. I wonder if he could have twisted it back into shape and make it rock.

[Haggis_McMutton]

Bill Gates rules!
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-57449 ... &tag=title
Steve Jobs was a total douchbag.

It sucks that Bill Gates left Microsoft. I wonder if he could have twisted it back into shape and make it rock.

That article(and video) seems a bit naive.

For instance, if it weren't for the Penn and Teller episode I would have never heard of this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Borlaug.
Philanthropy doesn't seem to be a good venue for becoming famous(unless of course you also pretend to be a saint while doing it and get that religious angle going)

[natty dread]

Bill Gates rules!
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-57449 ... &tag=title
Steve Jobs was a total douchbag.

It sucks that Bill Gates left Microsoft. I wonder if he could have twisted it back into shape and make it rock.

Bill gates? Please. Things were just as bad when BG was in MS. It's just that back then no one cared about computers, because hey, computers are for nerds, amirite?