Magyarország [Quenched]

[thenobodies80]

Last koontz post is the tangible proof of why I was and I am on his side on this "issue".
In addition it makes very clear because it was picked for a foundry assistan role.

If I've cut the discussion is just because there are some occasions in which if a mapmaker, a foundry assistant, a CA, the foundry foreman and also an admin tried to explain the very same thing to someone and in the end that person doesn't want to accept or listen, then in that case i don't want that all those listed person have to waste their time to speak with a deaf ear when they can use the very same time to contribute where ears are eager to listen.
I don't like to be rude, but soemtimes it needs to be done.

Nobodies

[koontz1973]

Your welcome hippo. No offence taken.
Thanks nobodies.

Now back to the map. Legend titles for the bonuses have changed. To fit land into the consolidated bonus was imposable. So shortened the other two to Lost Land and Saved Land and lastly Consolidated Land. By removing bonus from all three (does a bonus legend really need bonus in the title), they are now all the same. This should take care of GoranZ and ians suggestions.

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

[nolefan5311]

I don't see "Lost Land" anywhere on the map koontz. Regardless, I will update the XML to reflect the change in wording. Give me a day or two.

[Oneyed]

Leaving Poland of the map would be wrong historically as Poland was a benefactor of the treaty.
So now we have the reason for Poland being on the map. And I am sure that no one can claim that Poland should not be part of the map.

about what you talk here? who told that Poland should not be on the map?

We get to the names of the two territs.
When I posted my initial draft, I called them Trencsen and Arve. This was corrected by Oneyed and called Orawa and Spisz in the next version.

? this is what I noticed from the start:

to the map and names - where you have Orawa now is nothing Polish. you can do Turoc larger and add this part to Turoc. Orawa is where you have Spisz now. Spisz could be at the west-norht part of Szepes. Szepes, Spiš and Spisz is the same.

Oneyed

These two names are wrong as the regions where not called this at the time and are modern names for the regions. After further correction they became Arva and Szepes. These names are correct for the time in history and have been on the map since version 8.

I explained you several times that these names (Orawa, Spisz) are not modern. these names are Polish versions. if any names would be modern these are Árva or Szepes, because Hungars only changed old Polish/Slovak names to hungarian language.

to the names, you have them all wrong outside Hungary. your map shows situation after Trianon. these lands (in Slovakia, Serbia, Croatia, Romania) were no more Hungarians and all these lands had names in native languages. so when you can have them correct make them so.

And here is the second map from Oneyed.

Click image to enlarge.

As you can see from this map, all he has done is move the territ line so Lipto does not hold both. And once again I rejected it. Here is my reasoning behind this one.
It does not as Oneyed suggested make the territs move to the correct place.
How can I say that, well look back at the county map which I posted and Oneyed copied for his Polish white bits.

yes. and all what you should do is move them too. it is your stubbornness that you do not want. you changed names of some regions, so why not placement?

Arva on that map connects to Lipto, Trencsen and Turoc.
Szepes on that map connects to Lipto, Saros, Gomor-kis-hont and Abauj-torna.
Now on my map.
Arva connects to Turoc
Szepes connects to Lipto

also what you called Turoc is wrong. as averybody can see Turoc is the smallest region there. better name should be Trencsen (or Trenčín because after Trianon it was Czechoslovak area). and reason "they connects" is weak here, because you have space and possibility to add them to correct place.

So why not move Arva to lipto and Sezpes to Saros. What benefit does it give to the map? None what so ever. The only benefit would be that this thread would be about 5 pages shorter.

what is benefit? and what was benefit when you changed names of some regions following some advices? benefit is accuracy.

So now I have explained why they are called what they are, why I rejected Oneyeds first suggestion and why it was rejected the second time.

your explaintation is a little demagogy ("modern names" are not modern for example)...

Why have I given names to territs the way I have. For history. These names are correct for the time period.

as I explained here - your names are wrong. you do not respect that after Trianon were all countries independent and their regions had names in native languages. so why you have all names in Hungarian language?

name changes that where given by Oneyed where added until a better option was given.

and again demagogy. you did not change names following my advices. you told that these names are "modern", the truth is explained by me several times to you and also thereinbefore in this post.

Oneyed wanted me to change the placement of two territs. His first reason was rejected and again so was the second. I explained myself completely in the thread throughout. At no time in this thread have I not explained myself.

as I said, you changed history, geography and you had no reason for this, because there is enough space in map to move these two regions.

Sure, oneyed did no favours for himself in the way he has been posting but frankly what's he supposed to do when he is just being ignored (and then tag team bullied!).

You do yourself a disservice here hippo. At no time has Oneyed been ignored or tag teamed against. I have posted replies to all of his suggestions and the reason why they where rejected. Go find one where I have not.

I believe that hippo means that I was ignored by cartographers...

Last koontz post is the tangible proof of why I was and I am on his side on this "issue".
In addition it makes very clear because it was picked for a foundry assistan role.

after my last post you can see that he is not so right as you think. koontz told to everybody that names are correct for this time period. as I explained they are not, as one example.

If I've cut the discussion is just because there are some occasions in which if a mapmaker, a foundry assistant, a CA, the foundry foreman and also an admin tried to explain the very same thing to someone and in the end that person doesn't want to accept or listen,

and why nobody listen to me? I understand all yours explaintations and I tried to explain to you (all) that you are wrong.

I don't like to be rude, but soemtimes it needs to be done.

believe me nobodies or not, I am fine. only what I do not like is as you made dumb-ass from me when you said: "after any research both maps are wrong". you know that this is not truth...

then in that case i don't want that all those listed person have to waste their time to speak with a deaf ear when they can use the very same time to contribute where ears are eager to listen.

I have 4 month old boy, I have my own business and some more troubles, so it is not pleasure to "waste" my time here only for this map. hm, "waste" - I never think that help anybody to make better map is "wasting" time... but as you can see (in this my lat post) koontz made more mistakes as only placement of these two regions and he presented them as historic accuracy - using hungarian names for region in independent states as example.

and I am tired to explain the same thing 100 times. koontz what is impossible to understand for you that Orawa/Orava, Spisz/Spiš are old names used by Polish/Slovak and they are not modern as you "explain"? do you know that Árva, Szepes are just hungarian version of something what was before hungars become to this area?

Oneyed

[thenobodies80]

ok oneyed, you're right and we're all wrong....
KA has given to you a great answer to let you understand how things work and he is an admin of this site, they make the rules.
As I already said, if you don't like how we (all) do things here, feel free to find another place....afterall the foundry, or better, this map is not the only place in which you can post/contribute
Now please let us continue to do what we want to do in the "wrong way".

Good luck with all your things, your family and thanks for your time and thoughts.

As said, I have nothing else to add on that discussion.
Have a nice day

Nobodies

[GoranZ]

ok oneyed, you're right and we're all wrong....
KA has given to you a great answer to let you understand how things work and he is an admin of this site, they make the rules.
As I already said, if you don't like how we (all) do things here, feel free to find another place....afterall the foundry, or better, this map is not the only place in which you can post/contribute
Now please let us continue to do what we want to do in the "wrong way".

Good luck with all your things, your family and thanks for your time and thoughts.

As said, I have nothing else to add on that discussion.
Have a nice day

Nobodies

The map is literally toxic issue. For example "if you don't like how we (all) do things here, feel free to find another place..." could also apply to ethnic Hungarians in Slovakia who represent 10% of Slovakian population(they can freely go to Hungary if they don't like current day Slovakia). See how things can be easily turned into nationalist territory(which I do not want to happen).

Technically the map is about Great Hungary aka Kingdom of Hungary and its Unification, but the unification most-likely won't happen any time soon(if it happen at all). Currently when Slovaks, Romanians and partially Serbs an Croats who will play this map will say "Dream on pall" to the mapmaker, and they will be correct.

So why the map isn't altered in that way that it will be acceptable to the mapmaker and to not be offensive to Slovaks, Romanians, Serbs etc... and above all it will represent something that can happen or even better, happened. The mapmaker did some changes in this direction but I guess more are required. So it is time for constructive ideas

[koontz1973]

The map is literally toxic issue. For example "if you don't like how we (all) do things here, feel free to find another place..." could also apply to ethnic Hungarians in Slovakia who represent 10% of Slovakian population(they can freely go to Hungary if they don't like current day Slovakia). See how things can be easily turned into nationalist territory(which I do not want to happen).

You are right, but that can also be said for any county. But that is a political debate more suited for off topics.

Technically the map is about Great Hungary aka Kingdom of Hungary and its Unification, but the unification most-likely won't happen any time soon(if it happen at all). Currently when Slovaks, Romanians and partially Serbs an Croats who will play this map will say "Dream on pall" to the mapmaker, and they will be correct.

Unification of Hungary is again a political topic and not suited for the foundry. You are right though, Serbs, Croats, Slovaks Romanians will all say dream on as this will never come around in a thousand years. It is a basis for a map played on a web site and I am sure all of the players from the countries you mention can recognise that without feeling threatened.

So why the map isn't altered in that way that it will be acceptable to the mapmaker and to not be offensive to Slovaks, Romanians, Serbs etc... and above all it will represent something that can happen or even better, happened. The mapmaker did some changes in this direction but I guess more are required. So it is time for constructive ideas

It only seems one person has had issue with this map from the beginning. That one person has contributed many ideas to this map and I thank them, and I have been more than happy to explain my reasoning when I have said no to them which I have. Even when you came in at this late stage asking for the story to be changed, I did so and will continue changing the map when things are pointed out that could be done better. As for those two territs, they stay, my reasoning has been given, as for the names, they stay in the language they are as the language fits the theme. Hungary / Kingdom of Hungary / Unification.

[Oneyed]

as for the names, they stay in the language they are as the language fits the theme. Hungary / Kingdom of Hungary / Unification.

no the language does not fit the theme. it would be so when you did map about Kingdom of Hungary (before Trianon). but this map is after Trianon and all countries are independent, with their own languages and with their own names for their regions. or is this map made only for Magyars?

As I already said, if you don't like how we (all) do things here, feel free to find another place....afterall the foundry, or better, this map is not the only place in which you can post/contribute
Now please let us continue to do what we want to do in the "wrong way".

I would anticipate more constructive approach from foundry foreman.

I did not found so obstinate approach from mapmaker (and foundry) as in this map. what is the hell bad if me (anybody) advert mistakes? as you can see, the language choosen for map is (also) not correct - will you castigate me because I only explain historic accuracy?

Oneyed

[thenobodies80]

Names can be slightly changed if necessary or suggested in the proper way. We don't want to offend people, although the thing should NOT become a "political discussion/talkshow"
It's just a map to play, not a political manifest.

Anyway if someone is aware about better names, please suggest and I'll double check every single one and push koontz if those are correct.
But please don't touch gameplay for a reason that don't belong to a game site.

I'm open to push the mapmakers for improvement but it doesn't have a political discussion or with me, at least on the web, you'll find only closed doors.

Nobodies

[Oneyed]

in Slovakia (Czechoslovak republic) were regions named Župa. so it is on you if you will use župa behind the name of region.
names for regions in Czechoslovakia:
Pozsony - Bratislavská (župa)
Nyitra - Nitrianska (župa)
Turóc - Turčianska (župa). I do not still understand why you named so large region by name of the smallest one. better name would be Trenčianska (župa).
Bars - Komárňanská (župa)
Zólyom - Zvolenská (župa)
Liptó - Liptovská (župa)
Sáros - Šarišská (župa)
Zemplén - Zemplínska (župa)
Máramaros - Marmarošská (župa). but there was not just one župa, but the region was common known as Podkarpatská Rus, later Karpatoruská (župa).

for Polish regions:
both of these small regions are/were part of "powiat nowotarski" Nowy Targ County, but they are/were so small that they were just municipality.
Árva - Gmina Jabłonka
Szepes - Gmina Łapsze Niżne

Oneyed

[iancanton]

to avoid doubt, i'm making this post as a player and not in any official capacity.

koontz has been unfortunate to make this map after hungary started to encourage ethnic hungarians living in the shattered land area to apply for hungarian citizenship. it seems from the article below that, in retaliation for this perceived hungarian irredentism, slovakia passed a law to allow the state to strip of slovakian citizenship anyone who acquired citizenship of another country.

http://spectator.sme.sk/articles/view/46258

ignoring the above, there are two issues here: one of accuracy of some regions and another of the names of those regions. i have no comment to make on accuracy because nobodies has already looked at this in detail. as for the names, i agree with koontz that hungarian names for the disputed areas fit the theme better than slavic names: not only do hungarian names avoid the need for each shattered land region to be renamed in the language of its new "owner", but the whole objective of the gameplay is to unite the kingdom of hungary which, after the treaty of trianon, was the wish of many hungarian-speaking people, who referred to the disputed areas using hungarian names. the gameplay makes sense from a magyar viewpoint.

it is possible to design a map with gameplay where uniting the romanian, czechoslovak or serb-croat-slovene areas either wins the game or gains a big bonus, with nothing special for the saved land areas except a normal zone bonus. on a map like that, romanian and slavic names will fit the theme perfectly. however, the gameplay that we have is not like that.

ian.

[thehippo8]

Thanks Ian, I had been contemplating saying something similar. There is nothing to stop another mapmaker from making a map in the terms that they so desire. Indeed, as to terms, there qould be nothing to stop someone naming each region after, say, a landmark or a person of note or even just any random thing (like a number) that comes into their heads! Virisimilitude, or the spice of the visual aspects of a game, is (IMHO) secondary to gameplay and overall asthetic. I am fully behind both Koontz getting on with the map with the names of his choosing and I'd invite oneyed (or anyone else for that matter) to contemplate making a second map of this region (or even a part of it) with their own objectives and gameplay concepts. Spot on Ian, and kudos to koontz and oneyed for expressing their views. Now can we get on and play this thing already!

[Oneyed]

I can not respond to citizenship too much, becouse it would start next political debate. so just one sentence: this theme is a little irritable in this european region because this:

was the wish of many hungarian-speaking people

is not only in the past - it is still wish of much magyars. for somebody who is not from this area could be hard to understand whole problem.

as for the names, i agree with koontz that hungarian names for the disputed areas fit the theme better than slavic names:

you forgot that these regions were part of independent states with their languages.

not only do hungarian names avoid the need for each shattered land region to be renamed in the language of its new "owner",

"new" owner? from which view. these lands were settled by slavs before magyars and had names in slavic languages...

but the whole objective of the gameplay is to unite the kingdom of hungary which, after the treaty of trianon,

what was never become, at the first. at the second (and this is what I still refer) this map shows situation after Trianon, so all countries are independent with their own languages.

the gameplay makes sense from a magyar viewpoint.

will only magyars play this map? is this historic map or hungarian propaganda?

it is possible to design a map with gameplay where uniting the romanian, czechoslovak or serb-croat-slovene areas either wins the game or gains a big bonus, with nothing special for the saved land areas except a normal zone bonus. on a map like that, romanian and slavic names will fit the theme perfectly. however, the gameplay that we have is not like that.

ian.

no. if somebody will do map about Kingdom of Hungary (before Trianon) using just magyar language will fit the theme.

as I wrote to nobodies: nothing will change in my (anybody´s) life when map will stay as it is. the bread will not costs less...
but then present anything what is out of history as historic map and historic accuracy looks peliculiar.

if any mapmaker use english for map from non english area is fine, because this is english site and english is world language. if mapmaker want use original languages from non english area he would follow historic accuracy.

I can not attack koontz or anybody, but from this view the map looks as magyar propaganda and shows situation "from a magyar viewpoint". it also "take" sovereignty of "new" states and shows falsedad to players.

Oneyed

EDIT: what fit the theme and what fit the magyar viewpoint is using Shattered and Saved lands. using magyar names for regions in independent countries is ignorantia of reality.

[GoranZ]

I'm open to push the mapmakers for improvement but it doesn't have a political discussion or with me, at least on the web, you'll find only closed doors.

But as the map is proposed it has enormous political influence.

The problem is this: What if someone tries to make a map of unification of Great Moravia? It will consist of present day Czech republic, Slovakia, Hungary and small parts of Ukraine, Poland and Romania. I'm sure that the idea will have huge support among all Slavic nationalities on this site, and huge disapproval from Hungarians. I'll give you why for the map if needed... "All Slavic nations will be connected". Everyone can correctly guess what will be the main goal of the map.
But from present day Unification of Great Moravia is only a desire that has around 0% chances to be achieved, more or less similarly as Unification of Kingdom of Hungary.

And what if everyone starts to make maps from mixture of desires and Countries/Cities... where will that lead?

Personally I think that it might be better to set the time frame for the map prior Trianon agreement, and to represent something like dissolution of Kingdom of Hungary and creation of modern day Hungary instead the opposite, unification of Kingdom of Hungary from modern day Hungary.

[Oneyed]

just one notice which show that koontz realy did/does not know what he did/does here. the name of map is also wrong. the right one is Magyar Királyság.

koontz, please weak up and make things correct.

Oneyed

[koontz1973]

The title stays as is. The kingdom no longer exists on the map. It even states that in the story on the map. "The dissolution of the kingdom"

[tkr4lf]

I don't really see what the big deal is here. It's just a map on a world domination site, meant to play games on and to have fun with. I highly doubt any sort of political statement is trying to be made.

It's a fantasy situation, made into a map. Similar I think to Fractured America, or Fractured China. Those are both fantasy situations that haven't come to pass, and the goal is similar, unite the now broken, formerly great empire, etc. Yes, I understand that this a real break-up that happened, and that the people living there have strong feelings about it, but can't you people put aside your political bullcrap for a while and just enjoy the map for what it is? It's a fantasy map about re-uniting the old Hungarian Empire. Just take it at that and nothing more.

Koontz, I like your map and hope you don't change it to suit the whims of people who can't let go of their politics for just a minute to see the map for what it is. I'll enjoy playing on it, that's for sure. If they don't like it, they can just not play on it. Carry on, good sir.

[Oneyed]

The title stays as is. The kingdom no longer exists on the map. It even states that in the story on the map. "The dissolution of the kingdom"

nothing new from you...
...but in the story you have: Unite the Kingdom of Hungary once again. so is there kingdom or it is not? have you sure in what you do?

here are some reasons why Magyar Kiralysag is correct:
1, it was official name during Trianon.
2, the area which shows map and which you want to have united was known by this name.
3, from 1920 to 1946 it was still Kingdom with titular King.
4, Magyarorszag is modern name just for "Saved land" to use your terminology.

Oneyed

[koontz1973]

1.That is during, not after as map states.
2.The map may show lands from the kingdom, but not part of the kingdom.
3. The last king Charles 4th resigned, himself from state affairs in 1916. He died in 1922 after not being able to restore himself to power. No king came after him. You are thinking of Admiral Horthy who was Regent up to 1944 and also during the last months of Charles 4th life. He was never a king and Hungary was never a kingdom during his time.
4.Magyarorszag is just Hungary in Hungarian. I could of used Hungarian Democratic Republic, Hungarian Soviet Republic, Second Republic of Hungary, Third republic of Hungary or just Hungary. I chose to use Hungary on its own. To add a little flare to it and to stop it being confused with thenobodies80 map of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, I just used the Hungarian instead of English. You will see that there is one word in common with all of the titles and that is Hungary. Hungary (Magyarország) itself as a name has been around for centuries and used for centuries.

[GoranZ]

I don't really see what the big deal is here. It's just a map on a world domination site, meant to play games on and to have fun with. I highly doubt any sort of political statement is trying to be made.

The map is defacto political concept, everyone can read about about it in here: Greater Hungary (political concept)

It's a fantasy situation, made into a map. Similar I think to Fractured America, or Fractured China. Those are both fantasy situations that haven't come to pass, and the goal is similar, unite the now broken, formerly great empire, etc. Yes, I understand that this a real break-up that happened, and that the people living there have strong feelings about it, but can't you people put aside your political bullcrap for a while and just enjoy the map for what it is? It's a fantasy map about re-uniting the old Hungarian Empire. Just take it at that and nothing more.

There are no similarities between Fractured America or Fractured China with current map. The map represents political concept and Fractured America/China are fantasy maps.

Koontz, I like your map and hope you don't change it to suit the whims of people who can't let go of their politics for just a minute to see the map for what it is. I'll enjoy playing on it, that's for sure. If they don't like it, they can just not play on it. Carry on, good sir.

That is not the point, the point is what if Mexican player makes map in which he unites Texas to Mexico? Where will this lead? Site full of political concepts.

[Oneyed]

you are again wrong. the official name from 1920 to 1946 was Kingdom of Hungary.
btw, in the story you have: Unite the Kingdom of Hungary once again. so is there kingdom or it is not? have you sure in what you do?

Oneyed

[koontz1973]

Unite the Kingdom of Hungary once again. Do you not see it Oneyed. Unite it once again. Meaning it is lost. Wow.

So you think that my wife is wrong then?

[tkr4lf]

I don't really see what the big deal is here. It's just a map on a world domination site, meant to play games on and to have fun with. I highly doubt any sort of political statement is trying to be made.

The map is defacto political concept, everyone can read about about it in here: Greater Hungary (political concept)

That still doesn't change the fact that a political statement is not being made with the map. Just because there is a real life political debate/whatever about the reunification of the Hungarian Empire, doesn't and shouldn't affect this map. It's meant to be played on, not to make a political statement.

It's a fantasy situation, made into a map. Similar I think to Fractured America, or Fractured China. Those are both fantasy situations that haven't come to pass, and the goal is similar, unite the now broken, formerly great empire, etc. Yes, I understand that this a real break-up that happened, and that the people living there have strong feelings about it, but can't you people put aside your political bullcrap for a while and just enjoy the map for what it is? It's a fantasy map about re-uniting the old Hungarian Empire. Just take it at that and nothing more.

There are no similarities between Fractured America or Fractured China with current map. The map represents political concept and Fractured America/China are fantasy maps.

I disagree that this map represents a political concept. Sure, they may be a political concept similar to this map, but this map isn't trying to identify itself with that political concept.

And I think it's similar to Fractured America/China because it takes a fantasy situation about rebuilding an old empire and makes it into a good map. As has been said in this thread already, there is almost 0% chance that the reunification of Hungary will happen, making this map fantasy. Just like there is 0% chance the Fractured America map will come to pass in our world. Sure, the North American continent may one day be fractured, but not like that map has it happening. It's just a map to play a game on. Stop taking it so seriously.

Koontz, I like your map and hope you don't change it to suit the whims of people who can't let go of their politics for just a minute to see the map for what it is. I'll enjoy playing on it, that's for sure. If they don't like it, they can just not play on it. Carry on, good sir.

That is not the point, the point is what if Mexican player makes map in which he unites Texas to Mexico? Where will this lead? Site full of political concepts.

I don't see how it's a political concept. Sure, some Mexicans want to reunite everything that once belonged to them. What would that have to do with a map about it on CC? The map is meant as a game. Hell, I live in Texas and wouldn't have a problem with a map like that. I would most certainly play on it. But, I'm capable of putting aside politics in the name of a game. Apparently you and oneyed aren't. Maybe you should try it.

[Oneyed]

Unite the Kingdom of Hungary once again. Do you not see it Oneyed. Unite it once again. Meaning it is lost. Wow.

So you think that my wife is wrong then?

at the first - you said that Kingdom is no more on the map, but then you use Unite kingdom - what means it is on the map.
at the second - as I said the official name to 1946 was Kingdom of Hungary.
at the third - the goal of the map is to unite Kingdom, not unite Magyarorszag.

btw, my mother is hungarian, father slovak. so I had never hungarian-sloavak problems, jsut I live here all life, I study history of both nations and I notice your errors. no for any political reasons but for historic, geographic accuracy. and I know difference between orszag and kiralysag.

I do not know what said your wife to you, but it looks that you have any national problem...

you ignore not just other nations on the map, geography or history, you also ignore reality about magyars. and all this you present as historic map?

once more - official name to 1946 was Kingdom of Hungary, not Magyarorszag.

Oneyed

[nolefan5311]

Oneyed, do you get some sort of enjoyment out of arguing just to hear yourself argue? Because, unless koontz decides to do it himself, the map is not going to be changed. Your energy would be better focused working on your own maps.