Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

[Rodion]

Nag is Lovo, modkilled saint town tracker.

[jak111]

Well that leaves Violet, Saf, DRoZ and Strike, unless Victor (Who is now Doom and wasn't on my original list for some reason) was already evil.

Modkills are wrecking the game for us though >.< Hmm, going under Saf as confirmed town (or at least was when the 4 untown was found D2) Violet, DRoZ, and Strike, 2/3 are mafia and demons at that!

For each of them I could think of a reason why they would be town... but the numbers are overwhelming and this is assuming Aage was part of the 4 (since he was godfather) So realistically, all 3 of them could be mafia.

[Rodion]

Actually, Vodean and Soundman were demons on the list.

There's 1 mafia left on the list if you consider Aage was the 3rd and 2 if you do not.

[F1fth]

Welcome back, Jak. Glad to see someone trying to spark some activity in this game.

Only two of the 4 original were found on that list, leaving two baddies up, yes?

That depends on whether Chap's investigation was affect by Aage and his godfather role. The initial report came up with 4 and if Aage's role came into play there would be 5.

So realistically, all 3 of them could be mafia.

I don't think so. With Soundman, Aage, and Vodean as scum, that means there are 1 or 2 scum left on the list.

I agree that the case for Saf's claim is strong enough that we can remove him from suspicion. If we assume Saf is town, then we have to assume Vio is at least human (could be subverted though) since Saf had an innocent investigation on her at one point. I'm sure you agree that finding the recruiter is imperative at this point, and so Violet is not it. Neither is DoomYoshi for the same reason.

As for suspects on the list, that leaves us with Strike and DRoZ .

[F1fth]

EBWOP: Fastposted by Rodion.

[safariguy5]

Yeah, I did investigate Vio early on and she was innocent. Could be subverted, but not the cult recruiter.

I think that given what we know about Doom, if we're pretty certain Droz is scum, the numbers support pursuing his lynch. If we can kill the recruiter, my personal WC doesn't force me to kill the subverted humans in order to win. That may provide incentive for the subverted humans to help track down any remaining demons.

unvote vote Droz

[/]

I'm fairly certain the recruiter is already dead.
Aage/Baal was shown to have subverted players upon his death according to the scene.

His neck snapped and his power broke free of his shackles. Baal jerked in the throes of death and his power slammed into the men watching his death. Some it passed through, some it turned. Some had spoken for hanging the demon some had not, the power did not discriminate.

Darkness came, and the forces of Yahweh knew fear. They had killed their enemy, but more had been spawned in their midst. This night would hold new terrors for them all.

In other words, no one is confirmed now, random players are evil.
Droz or Strike are the most likely to be an original demon, doom probably changed randomly last night.
Iliad/jak is my next guess for demon as I noted. After that it's dumb luck...

I kind of hope droz won't be replaced in time for mod kill so we can focus our effort on other leads, so I won't place a vote yet.

[Rodion]

/'s post: agree with everything other than Yoshi "changing randomly last night". I had already pegged him as subverted yesterday, when he fakeclaimed an angel role.

Is the Jak lead because Edoc replaced him rather than modkill?

[/]

Is the Jak lead because Edoc replaced him rather than modkill?

Partially; also because aage defended your request to have a mass night prod

Well that choice is up to Edoc, but I personally don't think that he should have to do that. It is everyone's responsibility to follow the game. I think reminding people to submit an action outside of the game thread can be loosely influencing the game.

If Mafia miss their action- oh well. I would think that Town would want them to miss anyhow.

But Mafia doesn't. If this game were democratic in any way, there would be no point in playing it.

This would make sense if the final member(s) were habitual inactives (droz/illiad).
Also because as I noted a few pages ago, double voter seems like a plausible role for the personification of greed.

[jak111]

Not sure how I missed Soundman, I think I just mentally crossed off the dead from the list and only focused on the two I had suspected before.

So only ONE may remain (perhaps 2, but unlike what I've seen I'm not just gonna keep nailing off town because of some suspicion).

Vote DRoZ, while his claim seems solid it could have been a fluke. The others on the list I have more town vibes from than him.

Also, I do not like how narrow minded people have become since my departure. I fought for JG maybe being town with wrong info and pushed on Aage and Vodean. That being said, they were on the list, I suspect there to be demons not on the list at all.

1. Pancakemix
2. Rodion
3. Jak111 V2 (Illiad's replacement)
4. blakebowling ~ 11 days ago
7. No Survivors ~ 20 days ago
8. Gregwolf
9. /
11. F1fth

^ The above seem to be getting free passes throughout the game and if I am correct, a demon or two might be getting a bit too comfortable in this group.

Blake and NoS seem to be skimming by the most without a word for over a week. Just because they are not on the D1 wagon they seem to be getting a free passing. Now that I am back, after DRoZ is lynched, they will receive no more freebies. You have all grown too soft on the above list.

But speaking of inactives / wants an inactive dead yet doesn't worry about the above two? Call me a conspiracy theorist but I smell something fishy going on. But once DRoZ flips then I can better assess where /'s loyalties lie.

[strike wolf]

Jak replaces Iliad. I'm also posting in the replacements to see if I can find one for droz.

Technically id rather give blake the boot, been gone longer. I suppose kicking them both outmod killingboth isnt out of the question. I just hate modkills

[/]

But speaking of inactives / wants an inactive dead yet doesn't worry about the above two? Call me a conspiracy theorist but I smell something fishy going on. But once DRoZ flips then I can better assess where /'s loyalties lie.

Fair enough, I had no idea who was inactive, I'm not really keeping track day to day, I simply noted the last page iliad posted on; page 70 was wayyyyyy back in December, while 20 days ago is a mere 4 pages back.
The only reason Droz stood out to me was because we were waiting on him.

[jak111]

Understandable logic, this game has been dying off, tomorrow after this lynch I will make sure everyone is active.

[VioIet]

I would post, but I have quite literally, nothing to say.

This seems to be a confession. I am actually in favor of Droz being modkilled so that we will be able to vote Doom off.

And Slash's point about aage having been the recruiter seems right on.

[edocsil]

Droz ~ Augustine of Canterbury Saint ~ Watcher has been modkilled for inactivity. Deadline has been extended to 1 week from now, barring further modkills. Also prodding blake.

12 alive 7 to lynch

[Rodion]

Well, Chap used his power N2. I'm still uncertain on how the recruiting mechanic works, but could it be that the 4 players were 3 demons and 1 N1/N2 subverted saint?

There are many options at the moment, because we could be looking for 2 more people (if you consider Aage was not "caught" in Chap's power due to being GF AND that Droz was recruited after N2), 1 more people (if you consider one OR the other thing) or 0 more people (if you consider neither). There is also the fact we KNOW Yoshi to be anti-town, but more than 90% likely not a demon.

I believe my call now would be to lynch Yoshi, making sure nobody will roleblock Saf (unless, of course, we can find another demon).

Since we have 1 week, we can still discuss things. I suggest that we stop concentrating on the list (it has already found 5 people: Vodean, Soundman, Aage, Droz and Yoshi) and start placing all players on an equal-footing "suspicionwise" (other than angel claims, like Saf and Greg).

[DoomYoshi]

Now that droz is dead, I can reveal my action last night. I got a cop-investigate, and I investigated droz. He is guilty.

[jak111]

So DRoZ was truthful, but whether or not he was part of the original list is questionable.

But as to get more information from the remaining left fmpov: PCM, Rodion, blake, NoS, /, F1fth (since Greg is angel).

Vote NoS, Time to wake the dead from their nap.

[gregwolf121]

doom why did you wait until after he was dead to tell us this

[Rodion]

Doom was caught back in january.

[Rodion]

Doom was caught back in january.

As in we know Doom's anti-town since last month.

[VioIet]

Why was "Droz ~ Augustine of Canterbury Saint ~ Watcher," listed in Red? I thought Red was the mafia's color, and Blue was the Town's color.

And Yoshi's actions make no sense. I think we need to vote him off now.

[strike wolf]

Normally I'd probably agree with Rodion about lynching Doom (If for no other reason to prevent Safari from being interfered with) but I'm not sure that's an option. Frankly we don't have to kill the subverted to win and if we lynch Doom we're probably only slowing mafia down which I'm not sure we can afford right now.

I've been thinking about it and I don't usually like playing the mod but the only reason I can think that Edocsil would choose to lynch a subverted townie over another player is A. both were non-town or B. mafia is already very close to winning and modkilling town would either guarantee mafia's win or all but guarantee it). considering that Jak's posts strike me as town aligned and the sheer number of nights mafia has had to recruit (even if we have the optimistic outcome that they were only sucessful 3 out of 7 nights + whoever was recruited upon Aage's death (the scene seemed to hint at more than one player being recruited.) -Dr oZ we are dealing with at least 4 probably more anti-town players.) I believe that the latter option is more likely. We could already be in a situation where mafia already had the numbers to win coming into the day but were unable to act upon them do to inactivity or disorganization between the demons and Subverted humans (Likely with Jonty's ability it is unlikely that the subverted humans actually know much if anything about the mafia. What mafia may know about the subverteds is more wifomy). Coming into this day we could have been looking at a 8 town vs 6 mafia, 7 town (including Jak's extra vote) vs 7 mafia vote margin or maybe even a 6 town 8 mafia. In the latter case we'd probably already be doomed regardless, so I'll focus on the first two (not including any influence my action may have):

8 Vs 6:

-Dr Oz modkilled. 8 vs 5.
-Lynch Doom 8 v 4.
best case scenario (Assuming Mafia actions are sucessful):
-Safari kills the recruiter (8 v. 3 possible town victory pending if there's any other remaining demons.)
-mafia kill is sucessful (7 v. 3)
-mafia recruits human who isn't Jak. (6 v 4)
or Mafia recruits jak (5 v. 5)
9 alive tomorrow 5 to lynch

Second best case
same except recruiter is still alive.

Neutral case:
-safari does not kill anyone. Chooses investigate...maybe sucessful may not be.
-Mafia kill is sucessful (7 v. 4)
-Mafia recruits someone other than Jak (6 v. 5)
or mafia recruits Jak (5 v. 6)
10 alive tomorrow 6 to lynch

Worst case scenario:
Safari uses his kill but hits town (7 v 4)
Mafia Kill is sucessful (6 v. 4)
Mafia sucessfully recruits someone other than Jak (5 v. 5)
Mafia sucessfully recruits Jak (4 v. 6)
9 alive tomorrow 5 to lynch

Considering we can't say that Mafia's kill attempt will be or will not be sucessful than if we assume an 8 v. 5 (as it stands now situation), I would lean towards doom being the right decision for lynch.

7 v. 7 scenarios:

-Dr Oz Killed 7 v. 6
-Doom killed 7 v. 5

best case with assumed sucessful mafia actions:
-Safari hits anti-town 7 v. 4
-Mafia kill 6 v. 4
-mafia recruit 5 v. 5
-or jak recruited 4 v. 6
9 alive tomorrow 5 to lynch

neutral:
-Safari doesn't kill anyone. Investigates instead. 7 v. 5
-mafia kill 6 v. 5
-mafia recruit 5 v. 6
-jak recruited 4 v. 7
10 alive tomorrow 6 to lynch

worst:
-Safari kills town 6 v 5
-mafia kill 5 v 5
-mafia recruit 4 v 6
-jak recruited 3 v 7
9 alive tomorrow 5 to lynch

Under these circumstances, Doom would not be the best option.

Considering the number of nights Mafia has had to recruit...I have to assume that the 7 v. 7 option is very likely and I am leaning towards saying we can't afford to lynch anyone other than the recruiter today.

my list of possibles would be:

1. Firth-I know this is a bit OMgusy but I do feel that he presented the case against me both yesterday and today but never really followed through with it yesterday (At the very least did not make effort to rebut my rebuttal to his argument) And today backed off early in favor of the more popular lynch option.
2/3. NoSurvivors/pancakemix-more lack of town vibes than real scum vibes.
4. /-more town vibes than anything but he is one of the unconfirmed if I am not mistaken.
5. Blakebowling-ability proven. Leaning town but no guarantee. Whether he's been subverted or not would be a different story.
6. Jak-Leaning town. Secret vote was shown to exist day 1.

An aside to Violet: Presumably it was red because he had been subverted.

[F1fth]

I am not Firth, he was a different player. I am F1fth or Fifth.

Have you given any consideration to the possibility that Aage was indeed the recruiter as / mentioned? He even provided evidence based on the fact that Aage's death seemed to cause a last spate of recruitments.

Admittedly, it was not something that I had considered until he brought it up but it makes a lot of sense. None of the demon roles discovered this game have had passive abilities and all have been powerful. Therefore, I find it less likely then that Aage's only ability was to mislead investigations. Further (apologies for this metagaming), if scum were to lose their vital recruiter role early on due to a lucky investigation, it would be very difficult for them to recover given all the powerful town roles. Then it would make sense their recruiter has a bit of protection such as investigative immunity.

What I'm getting at is a surer lynch of a subverted saint might not be a terrible idea if the only other option is to roll the dice and possibly take out a townie.

As for your point about myself...

I didn't follow up on your rebuttal because it was a WIFOM and there was nothing more to be said. Your defense amounted to "If I were scum, I wouldn't take the risk to give Soundman and myself credibility by leading town to Rishaed." Was I supposed to say "Yes you would, liar!"? It would have been completely unhelpful to town but supposedly it would make me look less scummy. I'm a pragmatist, and how I appear be damned... I'm trying to find scum.

That said, what is it that you're accusing me of at the heart of matters? To me, it seems like it is my indecisiveness on whether you or DRoZ were one of the last scum on the list. I'll readily admit I moved back and forth on that one. I don't have all the answers, but if you'll note I ended up making the correct choice in the end.

Of the rest of your list, I would most highly suspect pancakemix. He's been playing "yes man" to my accusations against you (even when I was somewhat unsure about them) and it seems as if he's trying to bandwagon with me to create an association between us, which is a common scum tactic. It let's him get by with contributing very little and avoiding much attention.

Why was "Droz ~ Augustine of Canterbury Saint ~ Watcher," listed in Red? I thought Red was the mafia's color, and Blue was the Town's color.

[pancakemix]

Normally I'd probably agree with Rodion about lynching Doom (If for no other reason to prevent Safari from being interfered with) but I'm not sure that's an option. Frankly we don't have to kill the subverted to win and if we lynch Doom we're probably only slowing mafia down which I'm not sure we can afford right now.

That's actually a really good point. Leaving Yoshi alive is basically a ticket to Saf getting blocked. Hard to argue with that logic, despite the case against you.

Of the rest of your list, I would most highly suspect pancakemix. He's been playing "yes man" to my accusations against you (even when I was somewhat unsure about them) and it seems as if he's trying to bandwagon with me to create an association between us, which is a common scum tactic. It let's him get by with contributing very little and avoiding much attention.

I'll admit, I've had a hard time following this one since it started. That said, I feel the case on strike is based more in reality than in meta, solely because there was an actual action involved rather than the guesswork of "the list". It's also been easier to point out due to its simplicity. Is it possible that it was purely coincidence? Sure. I just find that too convenient. So as much as I'm flattered by you thinking I'm trying to be your buddy, that is not the case. It's just something I feel I can get behind, something I've been hard-pressed to find all game.