Pershing & celliottii[es]

[killboy108]

Accused:

[player]Pershing[/player]
[player]celliottii[/player]

The accused are suspected of:

Conducting Secret Diplomacy

Game number(s):

Game 14146890 USA2 with full list of high ranking players. celliottii and Pershing cheating to hand celliotii the game (see Round 29 to Round 32... please explain?)

Game 14281229 1 on 1 game - [player]celliotii[/player] giving the split points back to [player]Pershing[/player]
Game 14280537 1 on 1 game - [player]celliotii[/player] giving the split points back to [player]Pershing[/player]
Game 14271246 1 on 1 game - [player]celliotii[/player] giving the split points back to [player]Pershing[/player]
Game 14271243 1 on 1 game - [player]celliotii[/player] giving the split points back to [player]Pershing[/player]
Game 14271241 1 on 1 game - [player]celliotii[/player] giving the split points back to [player]Pershing[/player]
Game 14271232 1 on 1 game - [player]celliotii[/player] giving the split points back to [player]Pershing[/player]
Game 14271223 1 on 1 game - [player]celliotii[/player] giving the split points back to [player]Pershing[/player]
Game 14271246 1 on 1 game - [player]celliotii[/player] giving the split points back to [player]Pershing[/player]
Game 14271220 1 on 1 game - [player]celliotii[/player] giving the split points back to [player]Pershing[/player]
Game 14271217 1 on 1 game - [player]celliotii[/player] giving the split points back to [player]Pershing[/player]
Game 14264541 1 on 1 game - [player]celliotii[/player] giving the split points back to [player]Pershing[/player]
Game 14264528 1 on 1 game - [player]celliotii[/player] giving the split points back to [player]Pershing[/player]
Game 14264521 1 on 1 game - [player]celliotii[/player] giving the split points back to [player]Pershing[/player]
Game 14264518 1 on 1 game - [player]celliotii[/player] giving the split points back to [player]Pershing[/player]


Comments:
[player]Pershing[/player] and [player]celliottii[/player] are accused of secret deplomacy. They have worked together to cheat to win a game with maximum player numbers (all high ranking), and have split the points by using a number of 1 on 1 games to hand half the points back to the other player.

USA 2, with Full option for Players.... [player]Pershing[/player] arranging secret deplomecy with [player]celliottii[/player] to give him the game in return for "points splitting" by playing a number of 1 on 1 games where [player]celliottii[/player] lets [player]Pershing[/player] have the win.

Pershing has arranged a "points split" before including me with 4 other players to decide a deadlocked game, so I'm aware he does this.

This is cheating to the highest degree, and is against everything Conquer Club stands for with the clear set of rules. Both players are very experienced and know better. They know full well this is cheating to the highest order.

I expect that both players are kicked, and have their memberships closed!

NOTE: I placed a link to this post in the game chat of the USA 2 game currently being played.... You will note that all of a sudden they will try to pretend that it is a competitive game to try to fool you into thinking this is something else. You will note even when down to the last two players, somehow [player]Pershing[/player] (with this biggest deploy and highest troop numbers) was not able to even take a single region from Blue (cheat much?). [player]celliotii[/player] will now be upset that he just handed [player]Pershing[/player] a stack of points in his 1 on 1 games).

[king achilles]

How are their one vs one games connected with the 12 player USA 2.1 game? Where did you get this "arrangement" that Pershing is going to hand the game over to celliotii? You even mentioned in the game chat that celliotii is the one giving the game to Pershing, which contradicts what you are reporting here.

[killboy108]

How are their one vs one games connected with the 12 player USA 2.1 game? Where did you get this "arrangement" that Pershing is going to hand the game over to celliotii? You even mentioned in the game chat that celliotii is the one giving the game to Pershing, which contradicts what you are reporting here.

How are their one vs one games connected with the 12 player USA 2.1 game?

celliottii gets to win the 12 player USA 2 game worth approx 253 points to him. The secret diplomacy is that they have played approx Ten 1on1 games where they have agreed Pershing gets the approx 13 points win (per game) for approx half the points (126 points).Take a look at the 1 on 1 games, you can see that only Pershing has attacked celliottii, and celliottii has just attacked neutrals. The games are over after 3 or 4 rounds (not real games, just a way to transfer points).

Where did you get this "arrangement" that Pershing is going to hand the game over to celliotii?

It's obvious that this has occurred from the game log of activity for the above mentioned games.... The actual "arrangement" was NOT made in the game chat ie Secret Diplomacy

You even mentioned in the game chat that celliotii is the one giving the game to Pershing, which contradicts what you are reporting here.

Exactly! Pershing has won this game hands down.... yet now it's down to the final two players (Pershing & celliotii) and somehow Pershing (with the most regions, troops & deploy) can't take a single region from celliotii. & celliotii is somehow able to attack a stack of Pershing's regions.... NOTE: Now I've made them aware that they've been caught before they've ended the 12 player game they will try to pretend it is a competitive game. In reality, if I didn't post a link to this forum in the game chat you would have seen celliotii win the game without any attacks back from Pershing. They have been caught red handed.

[king achilles]

We will need more than this.

It's like saying everyone who has a history of playing together, when they happen to be the last 2 players left in an 8 or 12 player game, it means they cheated.

[angola]

We will need more than this.

It's like saying everyone who has a history of playing together, when they happen to be the last 2 players left in an 8 or 12 player game, it means they cheated.

At the very least, celliottii should get in trouble for point dumping and Pershing should get in trouble for gaining advantage because of it.

In the 14 games noted in the OP, celliottii only took three regions off of Pershing. He was killed as quick as 2 rounds in a 1v1 on Classic. Pretty obvious there was some sort of agreement in place.

[killboy108]

We will need more than this.

It's like saying everyone who has a history of playing together, when they happen to be the last 2 players left in an 8 or 12 player game, it means they cheated.

No its not.

This is cheating in it's rawest form, on a silver platter for you and your team to bust.
(Players have agreed outside of the game chat not to fight each other, and split the points by points dumping).

Please tell me what more information you need?

(I don't have access to their PM's, so I can't produce their "agreement") & (I can't see behind the fog, so I can't tell you the troop numbers they have in the game).
I'm hoping you and your team investigate this, as it's beyond a doubt what has occurred here.


Game 13879159
Here is a game where [player]Pershing[/player] has presented the "points splitting/dumping" concept and said that he "does this all the time".

**** You will note in this previous example, that the game was in stalemate/deadlock. All players were pushing to play a decider game to resolve the deadlock. All players except Pershing. Pershing continually refused to play a decider game. He insisted on resolving the stalemate his way, and revealed how he planned on doing it after he had handed the game to another player. ****

[willedtowin1]

Hang em by their Nads.................

[celliottii]

My turn to respond to this...

First off, I sent [player]king achilles[/player] a PM early this morning letting him know that if any of the Admins want to interview me about this allegation, they are more than welcome to.

Second, I have played several games with [player]killboy108[/player] and even more with [player]pershing[/player].

While KB makes a valid allegation...it's just that...an allegation. Unfortunately, he does not have all the facts. He is taking two different situations and putting them into one. So let me put this out there in the open.

During the "point-dumping" allegation - If you read the game chat in Game 14081366, you'll see the agreement to split the game was made publicly. We even mentioned including Otnal in the split. Based on the public agreement between us, we chose to split the points. We did the math to see how many points needed to be divvied up and Pershing set up the games. Nothing hidden here.

As for Game 14146890, no "secret diplomacy" was made. All truces were made publicly and broken publicly. KB was a contender until I ended the truce publicly and took him out. While I was finishing off killboy, Pershing was attacking and eliminating [player]Ciglione[/player]. The top two players took out the bottom two in that final four match up.

Going into the "final battle", Pershing had a 60/40 advantage over me with territories. One of his past strategies is to dump all of his troops into one region for one "final" battle (see game chat in Game 14081366). I suspect he doing the same here, but I cannot confirm it because of the fog.

Without killboy's cheating allegation, I would have expected Pershing and I to discuss in public game chat about splitting the points again. But nothing publicly has been mentioned yet.

So, therefore, I think I have proven there was no "secret diplomacy" or illegal "point dumping". I have seen several high ranking players continually play the same player over and over in 1v1 match ups with varied results. Sometimes, the higher ranked player wins the matches...but mostly, it's the lower rank player winning and gaining the most points.

Finally, I use my limited time to not only play here at CC, but I am also a SoC teacher, run the SoC 1v1 Ladder, and (hopefully) will be a SoC Teams teacher. I find it appalling that a higher ranked player gets knocked out by a lower ranked player and then has the audacity to go digging around trying to find a nugget to his conspiracy theory.

I'm open to any and all questions from C&A Reports Admins about this allegation...just PM me.

[Agent 86]

My turn to respond to this...

During the "point-dumping" allegation - If you read the game chat in Game 14081366, you'll see the agreement to split the game was made publicly. We even mentioned including Otnal in the split. Based on the public agreement between us, we chose to split the points. We did the math to see how many points needed to be divvied up and Pershing set up the games. Nothing hidden here.

This is interesting I must say....

[Pershing]

Got to love one by Killboy. Killboy just finished doing a point spliting game with me a few days ago. Again like Cellioti said this was agreed upon by the remaining players instead of fighting it out or starting a new game and having the losers suicide. Here are the games Killboy played winning all three while his opponent laid down for the kill. 144426741,14442188,14442177. anyway just like in my game with Cellioti this was agreed in chat. Killboys who would have been eliminated being the weakest player ends up with points. Cheating? No it was agreed upon by remaining players as the best way to end the game. Killboy's comment when he was recieving his points from the split.
"cool man!" He also within the last week suicided on a game with 3 other players 13722000. The dedicded to play a second game to decide 1st he lost 2nd and suicided 1st. Cheating, Illegal? NO not any more than how I played. All agreements made in chat. Players form alliances including Killboy all the time against me. I have currently 12 games I have been eliminated in on the board now. Killboy was involved with some of them. Many I was the leader and got eliminated because of his alliances with others. IN the game he just was eliminated his tried to make an alliance with Ciglione and I made won with Cellioti sort of. Mine worked out better than his. Now he accuses cheating? 12 person game pretty hard to cheat I would think. I win because I have mastered this map, use great strategy, form Alliances just like KB does all the time. He bullies , manipulates and does everything he can to win then cries foul when he loses. If there is parity with the other player or players sometimes it make sense. Playing well is not cheating . Period

[killboy108]

I'm happy to be beat in any fair game, and at an earlier stage in the game before I realised cheating had occurred I even congratulated Pershing on winning and suggested "well played" to him.

I am pissed to be beat by two people CHEATING!... And so would anyone else from the C&C community.

This is not acceptable.

Explain this:

Game 14146890 see Round 29 to Round 32 (disregard Round 33 onwards, as I have informed the suspects that they have been reported)... Red has highest deploy by far.... yet can't attack a single Blue region!?
Blue is attacking Red without issue.
Next round comes, and Red still can't attack a single Blue region!?

Pershing has even indicated when down to the final two players for celliottii to "2014-05-25 07:17:26 - Pershing: Cellioti go for the Gusto!" (ie, "this is you're win buddy, as you've already given me my share of the points with the 1 on 1 wins").

[Pershing]

And what is the punishment for false accusations? I beat a lot of people and many like Kill Boy say I must have beat them to win. Killboy prime example. Nobody likes to be winning a game then one or two people take them out. But is happens all the time. If you are vulnerable you have no one to blame but yourself. It has happened to me I don't like it when it happens. But I do not call the person a cheater who took advantage me even if it is 2 or more people ganging up on me to take me out. Treaties, agreements are a part of ever game I play with on this map for sure. The higher ranked tjhe player the more calculating they are about their agreements. I offer many agreements some are accepted some not. Killboy does the same. We recently played a 12 player assasin game in the last month. He got all the players to take me out and made selective agreements so he could build his forces and take out his player first. Did I like it no. But if others agree to help him win and he takes advantage of it so be it. Again I did not complain about it just chaulked it up and moved on. Hope about after three years maybe I am a pretty good player now? I have played with most of the best players here at CC and have taken my cues from their play. I found a map I am good at, apply great strategies and make any treaty or agreements that will help me win. Wow noboby does that.LOL And I do it all in chat. Sometimes treaties are made to take out a player or the leader sometimes they are made to counter other treaties. KB pleaded with everyone to go against me so he could win. But Cellioti decided it was better to make it a one on one with me. Then we discussed one on one or split. As these trench games are tricky sometimes I just prefer to split rather than risk the all or nothing. I end up with less points but at least I know I get some. Again killboy has done this many times so what is he crying about? Keep in mind you have to get to the end of a 12 man game to even have this option. Good luck trying to do that.

[killboy108]

And what is the punishment for false accusations? I beat a lot of people and many like Kill Boy say I must have beat them to win. Killboy prime example. Nobody likes to be winning a game then one or two people take them out. But is happens all the time. If you are vulnerable you have no one to blame but yourself. It has happened to me I don't like it when it happens. But I do not call the person a cheater who took advantage me even if it is 2 or more people ganging up on me to take me out. Treaties, agreements are a part of ever game I play with on this map for sure. The higher ranked tjhe player the more calculating they are about their agreements. I offer many agreements some are accepted some not. Killboy does the same. We recently played a 12 player assasin game in the last month. He got all the players to take me out and made selective agreements so he could build his forces and take out his player first. Did I like it no. But if others agree to help him win and he takes advantage of it so be it. Again I did not complain about it just chaulked it up and moved on. Hope about after three years maybe I am a pretty good player now? I have played with most of the best players here at CC and have taken my cues from their play. I found a map I am good at, apply great strategies and make any treaty or agreements that will help me win. Wow noboby does that.LOL And I do it all in chat. Sometimes treaties are made to take out a player or the leader sometimes they are made to counter other treaties. KB pleaded with everyone to go against me so he could win. But Cellioti decided it was better to make it a one on one with me. Then we discussed one on one or split. As these trench games are tricky sometimes I just prefer to split rather than risk the all or nothing. I end up with less points but at least I know I get some. Again killboy has done this many times so what is he crying about? Keep in mind you have to get to the end of a 12 man game to even have this option. Good luck trying to do that.

"But Cellioti decided it was better to make it a one on one with me. Then we discussed one on one or split."

Where in the game chat was this!?

Answer.... it wasn't in the game chat.

So if you made this agreement outside of the game chat = Secret diplomacy

Fine to make an agreement with the remaining players in a game.

NOT OK, to make an agreement outside of the game chat to eliminate other remaining players, and then split the points.

This is called cheating. You have done it. You have admitted it. You need to be removed from C&C!
It's players like you who ruin a great site full of people who play fairly!

[Pershing]

Killboy what is not exceptable is getting beat fair and square and calling foul. Have you ever made agreements to gang up on me so you could gain an advantage? Yes you have. You manipulate and bully other players as much as you can to get your way. Lilke the assasin game you had everyone go after me and then you swooped in to win the game. Nobody attacked you even though I pointed out how much of a threat you were. That is just the way the game goes sometimes like it or not. Fair? You beat me that day and beat you another using the same tactics. Just because someone decides to attack you instead of me does not mean we have pre determined this. You are just sore you could not get your way and were eliminated from a game. And as I pointed out you were just involved in both a suicide game and a point split game in the last two weeks. Sometimes an alternate ending is called fore.
The better players have agreements and treaties all the time and gang up on others and eliminate them. Weaker players frequently call "foul" or "cheating" because that is their way of handling defeat. Killboy man up don't be a sore loser. I outplayed you and beat you pure and simple.
You should know better. "Never go Full Retard" LOL

[Shannon Apple]

Yeah, I have to agree that this is a really crappy way of ending a game. It probably requires a slap on the wrist rather than the harsh punishment that the OP is shouting out for because I don't think either of these guys understand why this is wrong and how it can be abused if it's deemed legal. Lower ranking player makes a sweep in 12 player game to gain retarded number of points. High rank then gets points via a split. I can see this being done by many after this and people saying "well, it was discussed in game chat, so it's legal."

Sorry guys but unless a game has gone into stalemate between a few players, you shouldn't be splitting points, period. The last stalemate game that I was in went to something crazy like round 170 or something and the remaining players decided to do a 3 player game on a smaller map to decide the winner. The winner of the smaller game then went on to take the points from the larger game. That's what I call fair. Of course being one of the losers it meant that I lost 40 points instead of the 20 from one game, but that's the risk we chose to take. You guys aren't risking anything.

[scotthansen1]

simalar happened to me vs pershing as he was not attacked and allowed to gain bonuses when the opposing players easily could of taken him out but did not attack him and he eventually expanded with no one attacking him ., He called me a complainer ,whiner and said that I didnt have very good position in the game ( not true ) and he eventually won the game . Pershing is a very good politician and knew what he was doing and now wants a slap on the wrist . This is not how CC should be played and harsh punishment BAN, should follow. He thinks that he is above all and should continue to play . imagine if everyone starts to do this!!!! I tried to look at the game chat in the game I did play and for some reason all of his game chats ( only his are gone ) , Im not sure how this could happen but it did , maybe admin but who knows. I hope CC gets this right and can atleast give us some feed back on the out come

[scotthansen1]

simalar happened to me vs pershing as he was not attacked and allowed to gain bonuses when the opposing players easily could of taken him out but did not attack him and he eventually expanded with no one attacking him ., He called me a complainer ,whiner and said that I didnt have very good position in the game ( not true ) and he eventually won the game . Pershing is a very good politician and knew what he was doing and now wants a slap on the wrist . This is not how CC should be played and harsh punishment BAN, should follow. He thinks that he is above all and should continue to play . imagine if everyone starts to do this!!!! I tried to look at the game chat in the game I did play and for some reason all of his game chats ( only his are gone ) , Im not sure how this could happen but it did , maybe admin but who knows. I hope CC gets this right and can atleast give us some feed back on the out come

[Shannon Apple]

His game chat would be gone, if you foed him. You have to unfoe to see it. That may explain it?

I thought this was a one off thing where people came up with a rather stupid way of deciding the end... I guess, the plot has thickened.

[TeeGee]

The C&A TEAM will reach a decision on this case. It is not up to 1 individual but the entire team, however 1 of them will act as the spokesperson. That way they will reach the right decision. These things take time to investigate fully.

If you have more evidence to add, please include the game number, saying this happened to me doesn't help.. They need the game number to investigate.

Thanks

[Pershing]

First of all there is really no such thing as a stallmate if you do not want one. As I have noted Killboy got points from two Stallmate games in the last week. Who decides what exactly a stallmate is? For me it is Parity with one or more players and an uncertain outcome if I make a rash move. You said we are not risking anything well that is not so. If I am the game leader and decide to do a point split to ensure I get some points I am giving up half of my potential points. Why is this different than when a group of 2 or more players decides not to make a move against anyone but rather play another game to determine a winner and the losers suicide on the first? If I can win a game outright of course I would prefer to do it who would'nt. But sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. I have played my game like the other survivors and we have determined our fate and how to end the game. Nothing different then what you or most players have done many times. My method may be slightly different but not illegal.

[jghost7]

I do not know any specific details from the games. That being said, I think the pertinent question is whether "point-splitting" is legal under the site rules.

From the Community Guidelines:

Point Dumping

If you are found guilty of Point Dumping, that is, the intentional losing of games via any means, with the intention of causing chaos in the form of griefing, passing points to other people, or manually "resetting" points to a lower score.

Note: Because of the nature of Point Dumping, your account will be suspended upon discovery, and will remain suspended to protect the account and the website during the investigation. The Investigative Suspension is not factored into Disciplinary Time Served.

Point Dumping Infraction disciplinary levels are as follows:
1. 1 Month Website Vacation
2. Permanent Website Vacation
Note: Users retain the right to rebuttal via E-tickets as with any Infraction.

It would seem that this action is in direct violation of this rule. It is not even in a grey area. It is not permitted now, nor should it ever be. There is too much potential for cheating and abuse.

Thanks,

J

[Pershing]

Also I usually have much shorter games. 170 rds Shannon? Wow. The game Killboy took his point split in was at round 49. He and the other 3 players and myself opted to split points rather than play another game. I actually lobbied to kill one or two other players but could not get a consensus. I actually do not like this kind of split with so many players we all just got a few points. But all agreed on how to end it just like you did in your game. And as long as everyone agrees then it is up to us to decide what round or situation that makes sense. Do we have to get permission everytime we want to end a game other than one player winning it all? This game is about tradeoffs if you want to win consistantly sometimes and it means you generally have to give up something. Your creative finish is not any different in theory than my creative finish.

[killboy108]

I understand why this is wrong.

Do you understand that:

The big issue here is not the fact that there is points splitting (although this is not the right thing to do).

The big issue is that Pershing and celliottii made an agreement outside of the game chat to eliminate the remaining players, and then split the remaining points. This is cheating, and worthy of much more than a slap on the wrist.

This was NOT to resolvove a stalemate. This game was not in a stalemate situation.

Pershing and celliottii have cheated using secret diplomacy to agree to eliminate the other players when down to the final 4 or 5 players, and to split the points from the win.

[jghost7]

Then there are multiple infractions pending then.

According to the rules, point splitting is illegal under the point dumping rule and in the unwritten rules.

and Secret Diplomacy based on your earlier allegations.

I guess we will see where the mods go with this....
It will be interesting indeed.

Thanks,

J

[jltile1]

Warned and point reset, make a damn example of these guys. How long have they been doing this ?