Israel Plans to Restore Death Penalty for Everyone but Jews

[GreecePwns]

It is also important to note that Hamas did not start firing some of their more powerful rockets until the Israel started targeting Hamas members for arbitrary arrests and house bombings as a result of this kidnapping incident.

[Dukasaur]

Israel justified this attack because of the three teens that were murdered.

That's a false premise, and it invalidates the rest of your post. The murdered teens were just the flashpoint that re-ignited the issue. They are not at the core of it. The real issue is the rocket attacks, which have never ceased. Putting the rocket launching teams out of business is the goal of the current operation.

Okay, if someone committed a crime in my neighborhood, what's the reasonable response?

Stealing your hubcaps is a crime. 4800 rocket attacks, supplemented with car bombs, suicide bombings, mortar and grenade fire goes way beyond crime. It's war. Furthermore, with the intentional targeting of schools and other targets that provoke an emotional response, it's a war of terror.

It is also important to note that Hamas did not start firing some of their more powerful rockets until the Israel started targeting Hamas members for arbitrary arrests and house bombings as a result of this kidnapping incident.

Hamas has not stopped firing rockets since 2001, so unless they had a time machine, they didn't know they were planning to kidnap some teenagers in 2014.

[patches70]

That's a false premise, and it invalidates the rest of your post. The murdered teens were just the flashpoint that re-ignited the issue. They are not at the core of it. The real issue is the rocket attacks, which have never ceased. Putting the rocket launching teams out of business is the goal of the current operation.

Bullshit. You seem to forget the history, lucky we have it all still.

This is June 30, about 8 or 9 days before Israel starts it's bombing campaign. The Israeli army has just found the teenagers bodies. Read Netanyahu's own words.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/mid ... story.html

I'll quote them for you-

Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay.”

Other Israeli officials-

There can be no forgiveness for the killers of children and those who sent them. Now is the time to act.”

Go ahead, read the article. See how the Israeli's acted when the teens were missing. Read how the Israeli's reacted and find in the article a single reference to rocket attacks by Hamas.
In fact, don't forget this part either-

In the weeks since the abductions, the Israeli military has conducted one of the largest and most aggressive sweeps in the West Bank in a decade. The fallout has included house searches, raids, arrests and even deaths, igniting new frictions between Israelis and Palestinians, who just three months ago were in the midst of U.S-brokered peace negotiations.

So do you really wanna keep on with this rocket attack nonsense or finally admit, that in this current case, it started because Israel decided it's ok to rampage through the West Bank killing anyone who got in their way, launch air strikes on the West Bank and Gaza, escalating into a full blown air campaign against Gaza proper?

Because every bit of unbiased news you can find will say the same story, three teens were kidnapped and murdered and now Israel starts smashing the Palestinians.
There are no reports of rocket attacks. Not until after Israel started their rampage through the West Bank which resulted in the deaths of numerous Palestinians.

It's like a couple of black guys from the ghetto in New York city commit a crime and the NYPD comes marching into Harlem in force kicking in every single door and shooting anyone who offers the smallest protest or resistance until the point a black street gang gets pissed and shoot at a cop car. Then the cops say "See! They shot at us! So we were justified to go in kicking and shooting people all through Harlem!"

Man, Dukasaur, your bias is showing.

Normally I'm on the side of the Israeli's. Kick the shit out of Hamas, Hamas is a bunch of assholes in my book. But this, this stuff since those teens went missing, the Israeli's are way out of line. I hate Hamas and don't give a crap about the Palestinian people or their causes, but even I can see that what Israel is doing isn't right.

And you can't even go so far as to admit even that maybe Israel is over reacting. Sheesh man, and you give Saxi a bunch of grief? C'mon man, you have to have the ability to be fair and intellectually honest to some degree and not just steadfastly support what Israel does no matter what.

[Metsfanmax]

GFY. I was referring to universalchiro, and the rest of the Israeli nutcases, and their evangelical belief that killing all Arabs will lead to the resurrection of Jesus as you very well know.

Yes, but you made a blanket statement about everyone here who has disagreed with you, and this is not the first time that you've implied that some of us are Israel supporters merely because we don't agree with your seemingly picturesque view of the Arabs.

Reading the increasingly not-so-covert racism in this thread I feel like I just stepped into a time machine to the 1920s. A hundred years ago "your seemingly picturesque view of the Arabs" would have read "your seemingly picturesque view of the Negroes." Fortunately the police have machine guns to cow the Arabs (be sure to watch out for the Arabess, however). It would be even better if we could herd them together and safely cage them, don't you agree? But we'd be very humane - we'll throw food into the cage and have doctors look at them sometimes. And we can even let the agreeable ones out provided they first prove they won't try to fly about on their magic carpets and summon djinn.

Your hypocrisy is getting increasingly annoying. The entire basis of your criticism of people who support Israel seems to be that they are racist, and yet when I even mention the idea that the Arabs are also capable of doing shitty things, suddenly the race card is unspeakable!

Now, obviously, the basis for your view is that in this particular instance, the Jews are clearly the oppressors. However, this is a much larger issue than just the Israel/Palestine conflict, because you have repeatedly defended other Arab nations as being seemingly noteworthy examples of democracy (even Lebanon, which is kind of a joke as the only reason they have a somewhat functioning democracy, as far as I can tell, is that they have religious leadership written directly into their constitution).

[BigBallinStalin]

Israel justified this attack because of the three teens that were murdered.

That's a false premise, and it invalidates the rest of your post. The murdered teens were just the flashpoint that re-ignited the issue. They are not at the core of it. The real issue is the rocket attacks, which have never ceased. Putting the rocket launching teams out of business is the goal of the current operation.

Okay, if someone committed a crime in my neighborhood, what's the reasonable response?

Stealing your hubcaps is a crime. 4800 rocket attacks, supplemented with car bombs, suicide bombings, mortar and grenade fire goes way beyond crime. It's war. Furthermore, with the intentional targeting of schools and other targets that provoke an emotional response, it's a war of terror.

It is also important to note that Hamas did not start firing some of their more powerful rockets until the Israel started targeting Hamas members for arbitrary arrests and house bombings as a result of this kidnapping incident.

Hamas has not stopped firing rockets since 2001, so unless they had a time machine, they didn't know they were planning to kidnap some teenagers in 2014.

Maybe you'll stop and think about what Israel has done. Then perhaps you can arrive at a clearer stance.

[saxitoxin]

GFY. I was referring to universalchiro, and the rest of the Israeli nutcases, and their evangelical belief that killing all Arabs will lead to the resurrection of Jesus as you very well know.

Yes, but you made a blanket statement about everyone here who has disagreed with you, and this is not the first time that you've implied that some of us are Israel supporters merely because we don't agree with your seemingly picturesque view of the Arabs.

Reading the increasingly not-so-covert racism in this thread I feel like I just stepped into a time machine to the 1920s. A hundred years ago "your seemingly picturesque view of the Arabs" would have read "your seemingly picturesque view of the Negroes." Fortunately the police have machine guns to cow the Arabs (be sure to watch out for the Arabess, however). It would be even better if we could herd them together and safely cage them, don't you agree? But we'd be very humane - we'll throw food into the cage and have doctors look at them sometimes. And we can even let the agreeable ones out provided they first prove they won't try to fly about on their magic carpets and summon djinn.

Your hypocrisy is getting increasingly annoying. The entire basis of your criticism of people who support Israel seems to be that they are racist, and yet when I even mention the idea that the Arabs are also capable of doing shitty things, suddenly the race card is unspeakable!

And again. I wonder how many more posts it will be before you start telling us how you think "the blacks" need to stop doing drugs and "the Asians" need to start driving better.

[oVo]

In the news Israeli officials keep comparing their situation
with other nations, saying Britain and other developed
countries would not tolerate having rockets launched in
their general direction.

They never mention that the political dynamics are not
even close in analogy, since none of those comparisons
discuss decades of oppression or the displacement of
people from their homes.

The people of Gaza need to be the winners here,
not Israel or Hamas.

Is there too much profit in the escalation of violence
for any legitimate peace effort to succeed.

Claims are made that Israel has the right to defend itself,
but does the same logic also absolve them for their treatment
of Palestinian families who have existed in the region for generations?

I find the leaders on both sides of this ongoing conflict at fault
for it's continuation, escalation and lack of rational resolve.

[saxitoxin]

I find the leaders on both sides of this ongoing conflict at fault

I agree with 50% of your statement.

• - The elected leader of the Palestinian side is Abu Mazen who is not a member of Hamas and has no control over Hamas' military operations.
  
  - The elected leader of the Israeli side is Ben Netanyahu who is a citizen of Israel and has complete control over Israel's military attacks.

The inability of the Palestinian presidency to exercise its legal authority in Gaza is the fault of the Zionist regime. Deprived of access to their democratic governing institutions, Gazans are left with no choice but to express their political desires through Hamas, and to engage in necessary self-defense operations via the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades.

[Metsfanmax]

GFY. I was referring to universalchiro, and the rest of the Israeli nutcases, and their evangelical belief that killing all Arabs will lead to the resurrection of Jesus as you very well know.

Yes, but you made a blanket statement about everyone here who has disagreed with you, and this is not the first time that you've implied that some of us are Israel supporters merely because we don't agree with your seemingly picturesque view of the Arabs.

Reading the increasingly not-so-covert racism in this thread I feel like I just stepped into a time machine to the 1920s. A hundred years ago "your seemingly picturesque view of the Arabs" would have read "your seemingly picturesque view of the Negroes." Fortunately the police have machine guns to cow the Arabs (be sure to watch out for the Arabess, however). It would be even better if we could herd them together and safely cage them, don't you agree? But we'd be very humane - we'll throw food into the cage and have doctors look at them sometimes. And we can even let the agreeable ones out provided they first prove they won't try to fly about on their magic carpets and summon djinn.

Your hypocrisy is getting increasingly annoying. The entire basis of your criticism of people who support Israel seems to be that they are racist, and yet when I even mention the idea that the Arabs are also capable of doing shitty things, suddenly the race card is unspeakable!

And again. I wonder how many more posts it will be before you start telling us how you think "the blacks" need to stop doing drugs and "the Asians" need to start driving better.

It sounds like saxi is a perfect case for the fundamental attribution error. BBS, attack!

[saxitoxin]

U.S. relief worker Joe Catron followed a young man trying to help rescue some of the hundreds of injured people from the latest IDF attack when he witnessed IDF snipers open fire and kill the unarmed rescue volunteer, despite a cease-fire being active. This is typically how the Israelis work, they level a place and then send in snipers to take out the rescue workers, or wait until rescue workers show up and then launch a second strike. They have no regard for cease-fires, their #1 priority is the extermination of the Palestinian people so that more land will be freed for settlements.

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/beautiful ... oking.html

[Metsfanmax]

Yeah and Hamas also violated the 5-hour ceasefire the other day by firing rockets into Israel but saxi conveniently left that out because apparently it's only possible for him to support an idealized version of the Palestinians instead of the ones they actually have (and therefore the ones who actually need the support).

[saxitoxin]

Yeah and Hamas also violated the 5-hour ceasefire the other day by firing rockets into Israel but saxi conveniently left that out because apparently it's only possible for him to support an idealized version of the Palestinians instead of the ones they actually have (and therefore the ones who actually need the support).

You rail against me for unfairly accusing you of siding with the looney-tune Bible thumpers then try to counter me by citing a website called Breaking Israel News - Latest News Biblical Perspective! that - in a 200 word story on current events - quotes scripture twice.

And you're an "astronomer"? What are you submitting for your thesis, the script to Star Trek?

You are an absolute treasure, Mets. Please keep posting.

[BigBallinStalin]

GFY. I was referring to universalchiro, and the rest of the Israeli nutcases, and their evangelical belief that killing all Arabs will lead to the resurrection of Jesus as you very well know.

Yes, but you made a blanket statement about everyone here who has disagreed with you, and this is not the first time that you've implied that some of us are Israel supporters merely because we don't agree with your seemingly picturesque view of the Arabs.

Reading the increasingly not-so-covert racism in this thread I feel like I just stepped into a time machine to the 1920s. A hundred years ago "your seemingly picturesque view of the Arabs" would have read "your seemingly picturesque view of the Negroes." Fortunately the police have machine guns to cow the Arabs (be sure to watch out for the Arabess, however). It would be even better if we could herd them together and safely cage them, don't you agree? But we'd be very humane - we'll throw food into the cage and have doctors look at them sometimes. And we can even let the agreeable ones out provided they first prove they won't try to fly about on their magic carpets and summon djinn.

Your hypocrisy is getting increasingly annoying. The entire basis of your criticism of people who support Israel seems to be that they are racist, and yet when I even mention the idea that the Arabs are also capable of doing shitty things, suddenly the race card is unspeakable!

And again. I wonder how many more posts it will be before you start telling us how you think "the blacks" need to stop doing drugs and "the Asians" need to start driving better.

It sounds like saxi is a perfect case for the fundamental attribution error. BBS, attack!

HUZZAH!!!!


(good point).

[Metsfanmax]

Yeah and Hamas also violated the 5-hour ceasefire the other day by firing rockets into Israel but saxi conveniently left that out because apparently it's only possible for him to support an idealized version of the Palestinians instead of the ones they actually have (and therefore the ones who actually need the support).

You rail against me for unfairly accusing you of siding with the looney-tune Bible thumpers then try to counter me by citing a website called Breaking Israel News - Latest News Biblical Perspective! that - in a 200 word story on current events - quotes scripture twice.

And you're an "astronomer"? What are you submitting for your thesis, the script to Star Trek?

You are an absolute treasure, Mets. Please keep posting.

Stop being a tool, I just picked a random one of the sources I found for that claim. There are plenty more, but you won't bother to look them up because of confirmation bias. (Boom, two psychology phrases in one page! I've just been reading Kahneman's Thinking, Fast and Slow so I can't resist.)

http://time.com/3001132/gaza-israel-mortars-cease-fire/
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protecti ... ire-363165
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014 ... ror-Attack
http://njjewishnews.com/article/24034/r ... 8xdTVG9CMc

The IDF even posted it about it on their Twitter. But I suppose they completely fabricated it, yes?

[BigBallinStalin]

General question to the ladies and gents: is this a fair portrayal of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

the Israeli government is and has been actively seeking to exterminate and/or marginalize the Palestinians within Israeli borders and the Palestinian territories. This is OBVIOUS through the continued settlement programs in Palestinian territory, the constant warmongering, and the constant refusal to agree to (or credibly commit to) any peace treaty. The Israeli government really doesn't seek peace; it only does so when Israeli citizens feel that war weariness, but when that wears off, it's back to the bombing campaign. Israel has a permanent war economy (just like the US), so they'll keep pushing that War button, and they'll never have to sue for peace.

You're talking about a regime which used its CIA-equivalent, Mossad, to torture thousands of Palestinians--most of whom were innocent. For a nice comparison, recall the CIA's Phoenix program in Vietnam or its lovely escapade in GTMO, Abu Ghraib, Bagram, and its affiliates in 3rd world countries.

That's what you're defending, and your "what would you do" question doesn't address the history of violence and oppression committed by Israel. You just throw out that history and implicitly assume, "those crazy Arabs started it all, Israeli citizens are the only victims worth considering, and military action is somehow justified."


Regarding: "violent gang of street thugs in Hoboken, led by some crazy religious cultist," are you talking about the Israeli government or Hamas? Any military which supports Israel settlement thugs driving into nearby Palestinian towns to terrorize the populace is pretty thuggish to me. The Orthodox Jews in Israel tend to be the crazy religious cultists which constantly push for war (and for theocracy--you know, like the kind they got going in Iran and had going in AFG under the Taliban). I'm just sayin' that your characterization cuts both ways (and is essentially prejudiced against Palestinians, so sax calling you a racist is understandable).

[Metsfanmax]

BBS, I agree with most of that, but when we get to:

You just throw out that history and implicitly assume, "those crazy Arabs started it all, Israeli citizens are the only victims worth considering, and military action is somehow justified.

The problem here is that who is responsible for/started the conflict depends on what historical time period we choose to use for our baseline. (Kind of like how global warming deniers pick starting dates for their temperature trends to make it seem like the trends are weaker.) And also it depends on lots of other factors. Like, I generally think the Arab community had the right to reject the UN partition plan, as a narrow issue, but obviously that decision and its effects cannot be evaluated in isolation.

[saxitoxin]

Yeah and Hamas also violated the 5-hour ceasefire the other day by firing rockets into Israel but saxi conveniently left that out because apparently it's only possible for him to support an idealized version of the Palestinians instead of the ones they actually have (and therefore the ones who actually need the support).

You rail against me for unfairly accusing you of siding with the looney-tune Bible thumpers then try to counter me by citing a website called Breaking Israel News - Latest News Biblical Perspective! that - in a 200 word story on current events - quotes scripture twice.

And you're an "astronomer"? What are you submitting for your thesis, the script to Star Trek?

You are an absolute treasure, Mets. Please keep posting.

The IDF even posted it about it on their Twitter.

Wow, you just topped yourself in an encore!



When someone says "LOL" they usually don't mean it. In this case I, very literally, am laughing out loud at this very moment! Bravo, Mets. Bravo. You should really think about working out a syndication deal with Comedy Central to livestream your thesis defense. I have a feeling it's gonna be a doozy.

(P.S. I did you the favor of omitting from the quote the part where you said you also read about it on that paragon of journalism Breitbart. You're welcome.)

[universalchiro]

Saxi's point is that Hamas is not attacking Israel but defending itself against occupation, embargo and stifling GDP growth. It is a valid argument.
Israel says they are not attacking but defending themselves from missles & suicide bombs.

Hamas/Palestinian say we wouldn't launch missles if you weren't occupying us.
Israel says we wouldn't occupy if you stopped importing weapons.
Hamas says we import weapons because you restrict our GDP.

Palestine says we were here first.
Israel says we were both given statehood in 1947.
Palestinians says no we were here during the Ottoman Empire.
Israel says we were here from 1,400BC till 76AD
Palestinians says we were here before that before Joshua stole the land from us.
Israel says you cannot steel what rightfully belongs to us and our father Abraham gave us this land as an inheretence.
Palestinians says Abraham was our father.

Moral of the story, don't have children from two different women. But seriously, only divine help can solve this family feud. So both sides here in this forum holster your side arms, put those smoke wagons away, and slide your finger off the trigger real careful like. Especially you young wippersnapper Mets. Both sides slowly back away and cease fire.

[patrickaa317]

I find the leaders on both sides of this ongoing conflict at fault

I agree with 50% of your statement.

• - The elected leader of the Palestinian side is Abu Mazen who is not a member of Hamas and has no control over Hamas' military operations.
  
  - The elected leader of the Israeli side is Ben Netanyahu who is a citizen of Israel and has complete control over Israel's military attacks.

The inability of the Palestinian presidency to exercise its legal authority in Gaza is the fault of the Zionist regime. Deprived of access to their democratic governing institutions, Gazans are left with no choice but to express their political desires through Hamas, and to engage in necessary self-defense operations via the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades.

Interesting, I never knew that the Palestinians had an internal conflict like this. What if Fatah member was not the elected leader of Palestinian side? How would this conflict with Israel be different if the elected leader was from Hamas side?

[saxitoxin]

I find the leaders on both sides of this ongoing conflict at fault

I agree with 50% of your statement.

• - The elected leader of the Palestinian side is Abu Mazen who is not a member of Hamas and has no control over Hamas' military operations.
  
  - The elected leader of the Israeli side is Ben Netanyahu who is a citizen of Israel and has complete control over Israel's military attacks.

The inability of the Palestinian presidency to exercise its legal authority in Gaza is the fault of the Zionist regime. Deprived of access to their democratic governing institutions, Gazans are left with no choice but to express their political desires through Hamas, and to engage in necessary self-defense operations via the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades.

Interesting, I never knew that the Palestinians had an internal conflict like this. What if Fatah member was not the elected leader of Palestinian side? How would this conflict with Israel be different if the elected leader was from Hamas side?

1 - What minimal diplomatic cover Fatah has been able to provide the Palestinian people would be gone if Hamas held the Palestinian presidency. Israel would have a free hand to unleash a holocaust on the Palestinians of a kind the world has not seen since Rwanda. Fatah is a secular political party that includes Muslims, Christians, non-religious persons, and even a handful of Jews (one of the members of Fatah's central committee, Uri Davis, is Jewish - he is of the Old Yeshiva, the Jews who originally inhabited Palestine in peace with Arabs, prior to the Zionist arrival and land seizures), so is favored by western European governments.

• 2- President Abbas' term actually expired 5 years ago, however, Israel has foiled every attempt to hold new elections - due to its effective military control over the West Bank and ability to control contact with Gaza - and the Palestinian constitution provides the president holds his term until his successor is elected and qualified. Hamas has exploited the perceived illegitimacy of Abu Mazen's expired term to secure effective control of Gaza.

• • 3 - Add 1 and 2 and you'll find that Israel wishes Hamas ran the Palestinian government. In point of proof we need only look back to the year 1967. That is the year Israel captured Gaza from Egypt. Prior to 1967 Hamas was banned by the Egyptian authorities. One of Israel's first acts was lift the ban on Hamas ... but then ban Fatah. Israel's goal is to undermine every branch of Palestinian liberation viewed as legitimate or moderate by the outside world while simultaneously bolstering religious extremists; when Islamist zealots are in charge Israel has a free hand to operate with lessened international condemnation. It is an undeniably brilliant strategy on Israel's part.

Sadly, Fatah is a corrupt organization that seems all too willing to abandon the morality of relentless struggle against Israel (as well as the necessity of pan-Arab solidarity) so its leadership can get a variety of awards and medals from foreign governments. This needs to be acknowledged, as the exploiters will point it out otherwise, while simultaneously understanding that this is the forgivable reality of any government or organization operating in a permanent war zone without the benefit of normal institutions.

[Phatscotty]

Just one thing I haven't noticed yet (forgive me if it's there) but after the 3 Israeli teens were kidnapped, probably tortured and raped, then murdered, wasn't there an American relative of a Palestinian from Orlando, Florida, that was a victim of Israeli police brutality....which then caused all the Palestinian people to protest, and then started tearing up their roads for rocks to throw....

I just continue to see that left out of the timeline

edit: about 2-3 weeks ago

[saxitoxin]

Just one thing I haven't noticed yet (forgive me if it's there) but after the 3 Israeli teens were kidnapped, probably tortured and then murdered, wasn't there an American relative of a Palestinian from Orlando, Florida, that was a victim of Israeli police brutality....which then caused all the Palestinian people to protest, and then started tearing up their roads for rocks to throw....

I just continue to see that left out of the timeline

pages 6-8 of this thread

[oVo]

How would this conflict with Israel be different if the elected leader was from Hamas side?

I don't think Israel recognizes Hamas as anything more
than a terrorist group that launches rockets at them.

[Metsfanmax]

When someone says "LOL" they usually don't mean it. In this case I, very literally, am laughing out loud at this very moment! Bravo, Mets. Bravo. You should really think about working out a syndication deal with Comedy Central to livestream your thesis defense. I have a feeling it's gonna be a doozy.

When you're actually willing to discuss facts instead of talking like a partisan ideologue, let me know. I mean, pretty much this entire thread is you committing endless examples of the ad hominem fallacy.

Actually, don't let me know. If you're capable of being this disrespectful about my character as a scientist for absolutely no apparent reason, I have zero interest in conversing with you.

[patrickaa317]

I find the leaders on both sides of this ongoing conflict at fault

I agree with 50% of your statement.

• - The elected leader of the Palestinian side is Abu Mazen who is not a member of Hamas and has no control over Hamas' military operations.
  
  - The elected leader of the Israeli side is Ben Netanyahu who is a citizen of Israel and has complete control over Israel's military attacks.

The inability of the Palestinian presidency to exercise its legal authority in Gaza is the fault of the Zionist regime. Deprived of access to their democratic governing institutions, Gazans are left with no choice but to express their political desires through Hamas, and to engage in necessary self-defense operations via the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades.

Interesting, I never knew that the Palestinians had an internal conflict like this. What if Fatah member was not the elected leader of Palestinian side? How would this conflict with Israel be different if the elected leader was from Hamas side?

1 - What minimal diplomatic cover Fatah has been able to provide the Palestinian people would be gone if Hamas held the Palestinian presidency. Israel would have a free hand to unleash a holocaust on the Palestinians of a kind the world has not seen since Rwanda. Fatah is a secular political party that includes Muslims, Christians, non-religious persons, and even a handful of Jews (one of the members of Fatah's central committee, Uri Davis, is Jewish - he is of the Old Yeshiva, the Jews who originally inhabited Palestine in peace with Arabs, prior to the Zionist arrival and land seizures), so is favored by western European governments.

• 2- President Abbas' term actually expired 5 years ago, however, Israel has foiled every attempt to hold new elections - due to its effective military control over the West Bank and ability to control contact with Gaza - and the Palestinian constitution provides the president holds his term until his successor is elected and qualified. Hamas has exploited the perceived illegitimacy of Abu Mazen's expired term to secure effective control of Gaza.

• • 3 - Add 1 and 2 and you'll find that Israel wishes Hamas ran the Palestinian government. In point of proof we need only look back to the year 1967. That is the year Israel captured Gaza from Egypt. Prior to 1967 Hamas was banned by the Egyptian authorities. One of Israel's first acts was lift the ban on Hamas ... but then ban Fatah. Israel's goal is to undermine every branch of Palestinian liberation viewed as legitimate or moderate by the outside world while simultaneously bolstering religious extremists; when Islamist zealots are in charge Israel has a free hand to operate with lessened international condemnation. It is an undeniably brilliant strategy on Israel's part.

Sadly, Fatah is a corrupt organization that seems all too willing to abandon the morality of relentless struggle against Israel (as well as the necessity of pan-Arab solidarity) so its leadership can get a variety of awards and medals from foreign governments. This needs to be acknowledged, as the exploiters will point it out otherwise, while simultaneously understanding that this is the forgivable reality of any government or organization operating in a permanent war zone without the benefit of normal institutions.

If Israel wished for a hamas ran Palestine, why does #2 keep happening?