So are clans dead?

[Trevor33]

Or is it worth coming back?

[Nut Shot Scott]

Silly questions really. Clearly not dead, as clan league 12 is just finishing and Cup is just starting. As for whether you should come back, I think that's a question only you can answer. I guess there's also the question of does anyone want you back but I can't answer that either because I don't know you.

[IcePack]

If you’re comparing and pining for the glory days of old you’ll feel it’s dead.
There isn’t much going on as far as pick up wars or new events.

But it’s not dead yet and the existing events are still ongoing for the most part, albeit getting smaller as the site and number of clans shrinks and nothing’s done to infuse new life into it

[Nut Shot Scott]

You should start a new clan. More the merrier.

[Godrulesdude]

I think J.E. Hoover, having the feds investigate the clans hurt the membership numbers

[Deanos75]

Hi

Im new on the site (1 yr approx) and in a clan (6 mths approx)...i am finding it awesome fun....if this is dead compared some historic glory days WOW i wish i was here then.

Regards

Dean

[MGSteve]

Some die, some are long gone, others are doing fine. My first clan, Mythology died. The guy in charge got fed up with CC and left. It was shortly after woopintroysbutt left that Myth was absorbed by Memento Mori and I stayed with them as they changed names again and swallowed RGX. I'm not sure which other clans meshed with which, which died, were swallowed etc but I hear celliottii, the former co-leader of Memento Mori and guy I mentored in The Underworld to get him into Myth, went on to bring most of the best players with him into SoH and others. Not sure where he is today but I bet it's a really good clan.

So I read here and there about how bad CC has become, how great it used to be and that it's been dying for some time. It must be like an oak if that's the case. Because oaks take a long time to grow and a long time to die. I am enjoying it even more than I used to.

[benga]

Less clans does not mean low quality.
I would dare to say clans are stronger than they ever were.

[Keefie]

Less clans does not mean low quality.
I would dare to say clans are stronger than they ever were.

There maybe more strong clans than ever but the clan scene is weaker now than it's ever been. The gap between the top 8 clans and the rest is wider than ever before and that's not healthy. There's also a lack of leaders who want to organise new clans. We used to get 5 or 6 new clans a year, we haven't had that number in the past three !!!! Sadly nothing has been done in the past 2 1/2 to 3 years to try develop / grow clans. There should be more in site advertising for clans and our competitions. Use tournaments to attract potential clan players / leader. Recently Craig25 had a great idea for creating new clans via one of his tournaments. I haven't checked but I hope that it's still in progress. The clan department should reach out to Craig and do everything they can to make that a success.

I would love to see the development of a junior clan section. Where small clans between 6 and 10 players could develop and grow without the pressure of 41 game wars. Let the leaders and players have fun without getting smashed up every week by experienced clans. From these small clans, oak trees may grow.

The policy of the current clan leadership has been to let things tick over and if folk want anything more, then they should organise it themselves. In this time the clan scene has imho stagnated. Maybe it's time for a change of direction, with far more dynamic and exciting leadership coming from this department.

[Caymanmew]

Less clans does not mean low quality.
I would dare to say clans are stronger than they ever were.

There maybe more strong clans than ever but the clan scene is weaker now than it's ever been. The gap between the top 8 clans and the rest is wider than ever before and that's not healthy. There's also a lack of leaders who want to organise new clans. We used to get 5 or 6 new clans a year, we haven't had that number in the past three !!!! Sadly nothing has been done in the past 2 1/2 to 3 years to try develop / grow clans. There should be more in site advertising for clans and our competitions. Use tournaments to attract potential clan players / leader. Recently Craig25 had a great idea for creating new clans via one of his tournaments. I haven't checked but I hope that it's still in progress. The clan department should reach out to Craig and do everything they can to make that a success.

I would love to see the development of a junior clan section. Where small clans between 6 and 10 players could develop and grow without the pressure of 41 game wars. Let the leaders and players have fun without getting smashed up every weak by experienced clans. From these small clans, oak trees may grow.

The policy of the current clan leadership has been to let things tick over and if folk want anything more, then they should organise it themselves. In this time the clan scene has imho stagnated. Maybe it's time for a change of direction, with far more dynamic and exciting leadership coming from this department.

Completely agree with this, so much can be done to help grow the clan scene, but not much of it cant be done from outside the CD's. They control the clan world and need to be the one leading the way, whatever way that is.

[Jdsizzleslice]

There maybe more strong clans than ever but the clan scene is weaker now than it's ever been. The gap between the top 8 clans and the rest is wider than ever before and that's not healthy. There's also a lack of leaders who want to organise new clans.

The Clan Department cannot control which Clan Leaders choose to create clans, to remain Clan Leaders, or to leave/dissolve their clan. These decisions can only be made by the Clan World and its members. If more clan members wish to be in larger clans than smaller clans, then who are we to tell them no? We had a discussion back a few years ago in CAT about Active Player Restrictions, but that is something that the Clan Leaders did not want. You cannot have your cake and eat it at the same time.

On the other hand, we could open a dialogue about incentives for Clan Leaders and Smaller existing clans. I feel as if that would be beneficial.

We used to get 5 or 6 new clans a year, we haven't had that number in the past three !!!!

Maybe back in 2011 this was the case. There have only been 11 recorded new clans since January 1, 2014.

Sadly nothing has been done in the past 2 1/2 to 3 years to try develop / grow clans. There should be more in site advertising for clans and our competitions. Use tournaments to attract potential clan players / leader. Recently Craig25 had a great idea for creating new clans via one of his tournaments. I haven't checked but I hope that it's still in progress. The clan department should reach out to Craig and do everything they can to make that a success.

Nothing has been done at all since you were a part of the CD Team? Two examples:

What about the creation of CAT, allowing for all Clan Members to see the formal discussions around the direction the Clan Leaders wish to take? What about the creation of CWC? We created a new tournament for the Clan World to participate in, and based off the most recent poll in CAT, the Clan World doesn't want a 2nd edition of this tournament. The Clan World likes CC, CL, and RL, and it has for a long time. Do you really think this is proof that the consensus of Clan World really even wants change?

I would love to see the development of a junior clan section. Where small clans between 6 and 10 players could develop and grow without the pressure of 41 game wars. Let the leaders and players have fun without getting smashed up every week by experienced clans. From these small clans, oak trees may grow.

Why don't you create a new topic in CAT or in the general forums to talk about your idea? I would love to discuss a more fleshed-out idea and would love to see the Clan community feedback on it.

The policy of the current clan leadership has been to let things tick over and if folk want anything more, then they should organise it themselves. In this time the clan scene has imho stagnated. Maybe it's time for a change of direction, with far more dynamic and exciting leadership coming from this department.

This is where I think your mindset is of old. The CD Team is mainly here to help facilitate, not to completely organize every event. We don't want the Clan World solely reliant upon us for anything. We want to give members in the Clan Community the tools and backing to take ownership and run events, not run all of the events for them.

The Clan World was strong and vibrant when we had a larger number of members who were invested into running events to completion. We have fewer members who are interested in organizing events and leading clans today. The answer to bringing more activity back into the Clan World shouldn't be centered around how many events or things the CD Team can do for the community, but more focused on how we can bring more individuals to become more invested in becoming clan leaders, running events, and generally more active/vocal. That honest discussion would reap a lot of benefit.

[Keefie]

My post was not intended as criticism of the Clan department so please do not get all defensive.

All I would love to see is a policy change. Instead of being reactive, like above. Start being creative and proactive and I'm not talking about new clan tournaments like CWC. There is much that could be done to promote clans across the site and that can only be done by the CD team.

You say that my mindset is old because I'd like to see more being done to promote clans across the site. I find the mindset of doing just enough to facilitate clans very odd indeed. When I applied to become a CD, it was to change things for the better, go the extra mile.

[IcePack]

Reading through, it certainly is difficult to develop and grow the clan area especially if there isn't an effort or drive to do so. While the CD's cannot control which people choose to create clans, remain Clan leaders, or leave / dissolve clans (and I agree with that statement) there ARE things that can be done to make it more successful. Doing nothing, imo is the wrong answer. There are different ways to tackle it, different approaches that could be made and things that could help. Some of those issues had been polled or looked into briefly when it looked like Claniversity wasn't taking off as hoped.

Part of that is something Keefie touches on, stagnation. Pointing to one attempted event and a recent poll that says they dont want another of that event doesn't mean that clans wouldn't welcome or aren't interested in new events. It might just not be THAT event that they're not interested in. Again, I would agree with the statement that CD's are there to help facilitate and not completely organize every event. But this is also where the answer can't be that they're doing nothing either. Its hard to grow anything if its rinse, recycle, repeat and thats it.

The shift from Community Driven Events and Team Driven Events that Keefie is referencing occurred because there was less interest from the Community (as JD points out) so less things were happening. As thats a major issue to keep clans interested, growing, engaged and entertained the Team / Site at the time started developing their own to keep things going. (sort of a, if you build it they will come mentality, which generally worked w/ a few exceptions) It appears there is still little interest / ability from the Community to take on this task, and since the CD team has reverted to not doing very many of their own events expecting the Community to step up, stagnation will / has(?) occurred.

Nothing has been done at all since you were a part of the CD Team? Two examples:

What about the creation of CAT, allowing for all Clan Members to see the formal discussions around the direction the Clan Leaders wish to take? What about the creation of CWC? We created a new tournament for the Clan World to participate in, and based off the most recent poll in CAT, the Clan World doesn't want a 2nd edition of this tournament. The Clan World likes CC, CL, and RL, and it has for a long time. Do you really think this is proof that the consensus of Clan World really even wants change?

Not to nitpick, but the CAT Forum wasn't "created" by the current team. It existed as a private space already that was a continuation from long ago (CLA, CD & Friends, CAT) that as Keefie had pointed out, was already discussed and planned to be moved to the public forum and had undergone testing with me & KA to prove the concept worked.

As far as the CWC, IDK why the lack of interest is there. I wouldn't say its proof that Clans want / dont want change in either direction. I think part of the push back MIGHT be is that it was proposed not as a new event but as a replacement of two popular events. Perhaps the Community is open to new events, but without dismantling two of the three mainstays of the Clan Community has come to enjoy?

The answer to bringing more activity back into the Clan World shouldn't be centered around how many events or things the CD Team can do for the community, but more focused on how we can bring more individuals to become more invested in becoming clan leaders, running events, and generally more active/vocal. That honest discussion would reap a lot of benefit.

So on this front, what is being done by the team to facilitate this discussion if its something that'll reap a ton of benefits - why isn't it happening? At the very least, I would think to help the Community the team would lead these sort of "beneficial discussions" and try to get the Community moving in the right direction even if they aren't solely responsible for running the resulting events.

Bottom line, the responsibility isn't solely on CD's for the life and death of the Clan Community as there is a lot that is out of their control. On the other hand, if there is to be a revitalization it'll be their vision, effort, and guidance that will help the Community sink or swim.

[willedtowin1]

It takes 2 boat loads of extra time to run a clan.......lol
I ran OSA temporarily and believe me..... I am relieved Benga ( Worlds Most Bestest Clan Leader)
came back to continue his top notch Clan. Its not Easy and very time demanding.

but I hear celliottii, the former co-leader of Memento Mori and guy I mentored in The Underworld to get him into Myth, went on to bring most of the best players with him into SoH and others. Not sure where he is today but I bet it's a really good clan.

He is with a Really Really Good Clan....... OSA

[Nut Shot Scott]

Thoughts nobody wants:

1. Make the clan world more inviting to players by not being so closed off. Like, clan league finished - how is that not banner worthy? Clan mvp should be posted, winners celebrated. CCXI should be pinned to GD. People are competitive, let then see there is a competitive part to this site and that its fun. Pump up clans, and thats on CDs. You have to get out and at least try. Clans should be the premier part of the site - players should WANT to get involved. Not have to hunt for anything clan related or have no idea it even exists. Imo, this is the most important thing. If the CDs and the site dont care, then its damn near impossible.

2. Have clan recruitment events - some smaller variation of icepacks tournies would be cool. Super easy - you make it "clan free", so only non affiliated players who are interested in clans can play.

3. Have a training program. Do not expect current clan leaders to do this - they are busy as it is. But, for example, I'm not leaving icon but i could absolutely create and lead a clan if i so desired. Maybe there are other players who dont want to lead but could who are interested in simply teaching interested players how clans work and getting them in the right spot. This is probably along the lines of the junior clan idea, which is fantastic. This requires cooperation though.

4. Be more like Caff. You might find him off putting but he drags more random players into clans than the rest of you combined it seems.

5. I didnt start my little clan player rankings just for fun. I see the site needs more action in clans and thought maybe that would be something that could add to the experience that i could help with. History and stats go a long ways - people want to be a part of those things. The D400 is awesome and some kind of pinned clan history/rankings would be pretty cool too. And by pinned i mean add it all to the clan tab. Make it accessible.

There are players out there who could and would contribute, probably more than you think. You dont have to be super creative to get them involved but you do have to do something.

[Keefie]

Excellent post mate

Thoughts nobody wants:

There are players out there who could and would contribute, probably more than you think. You don't have to be super creative to get them involved but you do have to do something.

Sometimes it's not so easy to get people involved in helping to run a clan. I have told my guys that I'm stepping down as leader after Random League, nobody has stepped up. Even if someone had said, I can help if you want, I might be persuaded to stay. Sadly, as it stands Venom, will be social by the end of June.

[Nut Shot Scott]

Excellent post mate

Thoughts nobody wants:

There are players out there who could and would contribute, probably more than you think. You don't have to be super creative to get them involved but you do have to do something.

Sometimes it's not so easy to get people involved in helping to run a clan. I have told my guys that I'm stepping down as leader after Random League, nobody has stepped up. Even if someone had said, I can help if you want, I might be persuaded to stay. Sadly, as it stands Venom, will be social by the end of June.

So that's unfortunate. This brings up another point. Maybe there needs to be a clan leadership pipeline and everyone needs to be ok with it. For example - nobody in Venom wants to lead but maybe there are one or two players spread across other clans who are ready and able to lead a clan. A resource for that, that doesnt end in someone screaming "poaching!!!", might be a good idea. Just a thought. It's in everyone's best interest to have a good number of clans active. The more the merrier.

[willedtowin1]

"poaching!!!"

[willedtowin1]

Excellent post mate

Thoughts nobody wants:

This brings up another point. Maybe there needs to be a clan leadership pipeline and everyone needs to be ok with it. For example - nobody in Venom wants to lead but maybe there are one or two players spread across other clans who are ready and able to lead a clan. A resource for that, that doesnt end in someone screaming "poaching!!!", might be a good idea. Just a thought. It's in everyone's best interest to have a good number of clans active. The more the merrier.

This should not only be implemented...... But Highly Encouraged!

[willedtowin1]

"poaching!!!"
There....We got that out of the Way

[Caymanmew]

Here are my ideas...

Spoiler

[b]1)[/b] Open a program in which people can apply and be approved to help lead a clan they are not in. I can't speak for others but I'd be willing to help a clan struggling with leadership and war planning. but I am not willing to leave my own clan to do so. If I could temporarily join a clan and help run their war for them (without playing any games) I would. I wouldn't run it like I run wars for ATL in terms of research and planning, but for a lot of clans, even doing the bare minimum is too much. A clan like Venom (and many others) wouldn't have to die completely. [b]2)[/b] Focus on making the clan would fun for everyone. The reality of the current system is the top clans kick everyone's ass. Mid to bottom-tier clans exist openly solely to lose to top clans. They have no hope of winning basically any event they join and must rely on casual wars for actual close competition. Think of Conquers Cup, did it really matter if we had more than 10 clans sign up for this year? Outside the top 10 everyone else got completely stomped. Like why even play stomped. Half the clan world joined so they could lose by 20+ games... next, they will join CL13 and get dominated in SD, those unlucky enough to actually do decent will be rewarded by going into PD the following year to have their teeth kicked in... I am sure many of us play beer league-type sports... if half the league was pro's you probably wouldn't want to play in that league anymore... It is why, in my experience, the bad teams in beer leagues tend not to come back the next year or if they do have to replace 75% of their players. [b]3)[/b] Actively pursue potential clan leaders and try to help grow clans. Has anyone on the CD's contacted Craig23? He said he was interested in clans but he also clearly did not know much about them. As the leaders of the clan world, the CD's should be trying to help him and others who show interest or potential get involved. How about RA? Violet has been off-site since December, has anyone contacted them to see if any of their members would be willing to step up as a leader? Maybe Silly Knig-it would? He is quite active within the tournament organizing scene, maybe he wouldn't be interested but if no attempt has been made to reactive them then that is kind of sad.

[Nut Shot Scott]

Here are my ideas...

Spoiler

[b]1)[/b] Open a program in which people can apply and be approved to help lead a clan they are not in. I can't speak for others but I'd be willing to help a clan struggling with leadership and war planning. but I am not willing to leave my own clan to do so. If I could temporarily join a clan and help run their war for them (without playing any games) I would. I wouldn't run it like I run wars for ATL in terms of research and planning, but for a lot of clans, even doing the bare minimum is too much. A clan like Venom (and many others) wouldn't have to die completely. [b]2)[/b] Focus on making the clan would fun for everyone. The reality of the current system is the top clans kick everyone's ass. Mid to bottom-tier clans exist openly solely to lose to top clans. They have no hope of winning basically any event they join and must rely on casual wars for actual close competition. Think of Conquers Cup, did it really matter if we had more than 10 clans sign up for this year? Outside the top 10 everyone else got completely stomped. Like why even play stomped. Half the clan world joined so they could lose by 20+ games... next, they will join CL13 and get dominated in SD, those unlucky enough to actually do decent will be rewarded by going into PD the following year to have their teeth kicked in... I am sure many of us play beer league-type sports... if half the league was pro's you probably wouldn't want to play in that league anymore... It is why, in my experience, the bad teams in beer leagues tend not to come back the next year or if they do have to replace 75% of their players. [b]3)[/b] Actively pursue potential clan leaders and try to help grow clans. Has anyone on the CD's contacted Craig23? He said he was interested in clans but he also clearly did not know much about them. As the leaders of the clan world, the CD's should be trying to help him and others who show interest or potential get involved. How about RA? Violet has been off-site since December, has anyone contacted them to see if any of their members would be willing to step up as a leader? Maybe Silly Knig-it would? He is quite active within the tournament organizing scene, maybe he wouldn't be interested but if no attempt has been made to reactive them then that is kind of sad.

All of this. No offense - really, none at all meant here - but I'm pretty sure if you gave me about three days, the ability to do a few things, and some willing people, we could get an outline for something pretty cool.

[willedtowin1]

Enthusiasms is one thing...... Commitment to succeed is another.

[Keefie]

edited

[IcePack]

I think you also have to understand, its not your vision for the clan area, your creativity, or anything else but the owners vision that matters.
The team has a tough job, and while no team is perfect and there is always much improvement that could be done change only occurs if the owner feels the current situation is undesirable / untenable. If he feels they're meant to be facilitators of nothing, then nothings going to change regardless. From knowing him and dealing with him in the past pretty actively, he isn't going to act rashly or drastically without showing broad community support for changes, reasons why change is necessary and can't be implemented under the current, and an actual plan moving forward.

Its much easier to take shots at the team then it is to contribute to the area long term. It would be far more productive to make changes actively within the Community, and unless the team isn't receptive to the changes, perhaps putting away the pitch forks and working with them instead of against them would be beneficial.

Regarding the ideas proposed:
1) Generally this goes against the long standing principle of one clan per person. those policies have been there for a long time for reasons. Doesn't mean they can't change, but definitely provides some level of mistrust / risk. There are other things that can be done to improve.

2) Mid to bottom tier clans are free to have fun, and not just there to lose to top clans. In fact I'd argue based on the rankings / ratings discussions recently, in fact if anything the top tier clans avoid warring them because its not fun for either side unless forced to through a competition. The different leagues have always been around to help facilitate not getting spanked constantly by the upper tiers, and they're free and able to do pick up wars as well as other stuff, like the invitational. Other events can be created to get these group(s) to be more active as well. The conquerors cup has always been "open to all" so any clan can try and match up / play the top competition. But generally speaking, there is less interest in that then there has been in the past.

I do agree / think some more things could be done to better the entertainment value for those clans.

3) Agree with this, though its one of those side program type things and not something that constantly really gets a lot of stuff generated. Its something over time. But with a shrinking membership and shrinking site, its tougher and tougher to put something together even if you aren't aiming to be in the Top 10.

In the past, reaching out to struggling / active clans was something that was done to see what could be done to assist through the traditional structure. There were times where a clan was supposed to be shut down because they didn't even have the minimum number of bodies to qualify as an active clan anymore, and so I spent a Saturday contacting a few dozen non clan people that might be interested and helped bolster their ranks. It was a temporary solution, but it helped.

Other things that helped was creating new / interesting events. ID was inactive for quite some time, and when CR@W was developed some of their members were interested enough in the event that a player stepped up, became a new clan leader for them, recruited people to participate in the event and they survived a few years before withdrawing from the scene again. No efforts are going to be permanent, but a lot of little efforts combined can make a difference of a more exciting, lasting, and thriving Clan Community.

Fastposted:

All of this. No offense - really, none at all meant here - but I'm pretty sure if you gave me about three days, the ability to do a few things, and some willing people, we could get an outline for something pretty cool.

As a discussion with BigWham once went along that lines, and the answer was - so whats stopping you from doing that now?

Enthusiasms is one thing...... Commitment to succeed is another.

Definitely, its a lot of work needed, time to put in, and effort to lead by example.